Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Mortarboard]

Is 33.34% a big number?
Because that how much of the UK economy is from exports alone.

Now factor in how much of the uk economy is reliant on imports.

M.

[Vanden Saab]

I said:

So do I, as I was actually replying to this.
a very large number of business and individuals have had their lives made unnecessarily more difficult and expensive because of the opinions and beliefs of slightly more people,
It makes my case perfectly unless you think 2% is a very large number.

Mortarboard said:

Is 33.34% a big number?
Because that how much of the UK economy is from exports alone.

Now factor in how much of the uk economy is reliant on imports.

M.

Leaving out my post and trying to conflate to other figures how utterly predictable.

The point













You

And 33% is not just goods exports to the EU or even goods exports and imports is it. At least try to be accurate with your figures it make you look a bit shady if you do not.

[sugerbear]

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

[Mortarboard]

Vanden Saab said:

And 33% is not just goods exports to the EU or even goods exports and imports is it. At least try to be accurate with your figures it make you look a bit shady if you do not.

The uk only has one border you loon.

Call me shady all you like. You'd still be wong.

M.

[732NM]

sugerbear said:

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

The Irish consumer is paying that. Maybe the EU should reduce their import duties so the Irish consumer is better off.

[CivicDuties]

andymadmak said:

CivicDuties said:

Fair enough response, andymadmak. However. Is it easier/cheaper now than before Brexit?

It's more difficult. Not as difficult as it used to be, not as simple as it had got to, but equally, its not THAT horrid either (based on conversations I have had with ex colleagues who are still in the trade) In absolutist terms you win on the "more difficult" point. In relative terms though its mostly a nothing burger.

CivicDuties said:

Is the new system delivering any opportunities for UK businesses since Brexit, what are those and what are the quantifiable results?

The system is the system, its not intended to deliver opportunities per se so I'm afraid this question is a bit loaded imho

CivicDuties said:

Is it delivering an increase or reduction in net business benefits to the UK?

As above, plus you'd need to define more tightly what you mean by net business benefits. It could indeed bring benefits for trade with countries that are not aligned with the EU for example.

CivicDuties said:

Is the implementation of this regime opening up opportunities for these businesses outside Europe?

As above, but its up to business to identify and exploit those opportunities

CivicDuties said:

These are the exam questions in the context of "was Brexit worth it".

For you, yes these are the exam questions, because that's how you want to see things - everything you frame is intended to bolster your position, so you take simplistic views based on demanding answers to questions that don't actually address the nuances of what is actually the case.
You see ANY increase in complexity in our trade with the EU, however minor, as something terrible that wipes out any potential benefit. You also have this somewhat bizarre view that anyone that disagrees with you must answer your (loaded) questions - frankly they don't have to do that, and not doing so doesn't make them wrong or you right.

CivicDuties said:

Because for us to have made this backwards step, it must have been done to take forward steps which will lead to a net benefit. What are those, and where are they and what do they amount to? How do the balance against the losses incurred?

See above! I'm not trying to pick a fight on a friday evening, but people aren't really going to engage with the kind of stuff above because, in all sincerity, it's abundantly clear that nothing would cause you to rethink your position, so why should people bother to engage?

It's something of a pattern with you: You sneer at and insult people who voted Brexit, but complain and become indignant when you feel you've been slighted yourself. You demand that people concede that they were wrong about Brexit before you will consider their points, but refuse to consider that you yourself might not be right. You frame arguments in terms entirely based to your world view and then complain when others won't engage in a way that satisfies you. You're not alone in these behaviours, so please don't take it entirely personally.

CivicDuties said:

I'd suggest the answer to all of those points is negative.

We know you would! Anyway, have a good weekend

I hope you had a good weekend too, I started mine a bit early.

I'll struggle a bit with all your answers, as they always seem to be semantic, rather than ever provide any tangible evidence of any Brexit benefits. Which is rather the point of this thread. Was it worth it? No, it doesn't appear to have been, is the only logical answer at the moment.

And given the above comment, it's entirely unfair to attempt to characterise me, or anyone as closed minded. I want to find the Brexit benefits, I'd love for there to be some, I'd love to be able to come out and say, "blimey, I was wrong, look at all this evidence". As I said, I've swung from Leave to Remain before the referendum, I'm perfectly capable of swinging the other way - when the facts and evidence point that way. This is because I want my country to succeed, because I'm probably going to spend the rest of my life here, and I've got children who may well do so as well. I want the best for us, and I can't see it coming at the moment. Faith and slogans aren't cutting it.

As for me being a bit withering and sarcastic in the way I write - well, mea culpa. It's really hard not to be due to absolute lack of any real evidence that Brexit was a good idea so far. A few good things are out there, but there is such a gap between the effect of those and the negative effects of Brexit still, that it frustrates me that people cant see it. All you seem to be able to say in your answers here is "well it's not as bad as it could be". That's not good enough to win me over. And as for the recent insinuation, which I have to take to mean that for some reason Van den Saab thinks I'm some kind of sex case, and he is not withdrawing the insinuation, well that's so far beyond any withering sarcasm I might deploy that it's hardly a fair comparison. See also Murph's "st parenting" jibe some time ago. Utterly personal, utterly below the belt, beyond reasonable realms of adult discussion, and made without a single iota of knowledge about me other than "Muh, look at the Remoaner". We are still in the realms of "you lost, get over it" as justification for the situation today. I'd still like apologies and retractions from Murph and Saab, I'm 99% certain they'll never come because all anyone ever seems to do these days is double down on their nonsense.

[Deesee]

732NM said:

sugerbear said:

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

The Irish consumer is paying that. Maybe the EU should reduce their import duties so the Irish consumer is better off.

Irish Gov gets 25% of that EU 75%.

Most of these Tax revenues are from goods of not preferable origin, ie Clothing made in China/India..

UK now responsible for half of Irelands customs revenue due to the fact goods are held here for a short time warehoused.

If they were made in the EU or UK no Tariff..

EU needs to restore some factory's in the Southern States....

& Ireland no longer in recession as of this morning..

[Killboy]

I seem to remember some bleating about the London Stock Exchange a couple pages back. What was that about again?

[Murph7355]

Deesee said:

732NM said:

sugerbear said:

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

The Irish consumer is paying that. Maybe the EU should reduce their import duties so the Irish consumer is better off.

Irish Gov gets 25% of that EU 75%.

Most of these Tax revenues are from goods of not preferable origin, ie Clothing made in China/India..

UK now responsible for half of Irelands customs revenue due to the fact goods are held here for a short time warehoused.

If they were made in the EU or UK no Tariff..

EU needs to restore some factory's in the Southern States....

& Ireland no longer in recession as of this morning..

It's still the Irish consumer paying it.

And iirc Brexit wasn't really about them. They make their own choices.

[Mrr T]

Murph7355 said:

Deesee said:

732NM said:

sugerbear said:

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

The Irish consumer is paying that. Maybe the EU should reduce their import duties so the Irish consumer is better off.

Irish Gov gets 25% of that EU 75%.

Most of these Tax revenues are from goods of not preferable origin, ie Clothing made in China/India..

UK now responsible for half of Irelands customs revenue due to the fact goods are held here for a short time warehoused.

If they were made in the EU or UK no Tariff..

EU needs to restore some factory's in the Southern States....

& Ireland no longer in recession as of this morning..

It's still the Irish consumer paying it.

And iirc Brexit wasn't really about them. They make their own choices.

The answer is possible more complex depending on the goods. While the Irish consumer is paying it if the duty makes the product more expensive than products produced locally or imported directly the UK exporter may be having to reduce there profit margin to remain competitive. Therefore reducing UK corporation tax payments.

If the duty are on goods made in China/India then the obvious solution is to set up and import directly. Again taking business away from the UK.

[Deesee]

Murph7355 said:

Deesee said:

732NM said:

sugerbear said:

"Ireland reaps €700m Brexit bonanza from customs duties - Dublin records near-doubling of tax revenue from duties on imports of clothing, food and other goods from Great Britain" - headline in the Gruniard today.

Another brexit win for someone else.

The Irish consumer is paying that. Maybe the EU should reduce their import duties so the Irish consumer is better off.

Irish Gov gets 25% of that EU 75%.

Most of these Tax revenues are from goods of not preferable origin, ie Clothing made in China/India..

UK now responsible for half of Irelands customs revenue due to the fact goods are held here for a short time warehoused.

If they were made in the EU or UK no Tariff..

EU needs to restore some factory's in the Southern States....

& Ireland no longer in recession as of this morning..

It's still the Irish consumer paying it.

And iirc Brexit wasn't really about them. They make their own choices.

The way the EU works the more the Irish pay in the more the UK and Germany pay.. oh.. only Germany now.

[Deesee]

Mrr T said:

The answer is possible more complex depending on the goods. While the Irish consumer is paying it if the duty makes the product more expensive than products produced locally or imported directly the UK exporter may be having to reduce there profit margin to remain competitive. Therefore reducing UK corporation tax payments.

If the duty are on goods made in China/India then the obvious solution is to set up and import directly. Again taking business away from the UK.

Not quite the UK and EU have a trade agreement on goods made in their and our area..

The EU we’re very clear they did not want goods of EU origin subject to tariffs into the Uk. ROW stuff we compete now as UK, they complete as the bloc.

• *

Irish retail businesses could always choose to have the imported tax paid by the French or Belgium and have it shipped directly for the EU… lol.. why bring 3rd country goods to the UK to be imported watch this space as they figure out we get 100% of customs charges and Ireland/France/Belgium only get 25%… far easier for us to do the heavy lifting on ROW imports and transship to EU.. Ireland is certainly better off.


We charge for transshipment, Ireland paying extra, however the more they spend…the more the gross contributors to the EU contribute… whom are Germany..

[Murph7355]

Mrr T said:

The answer is possible more complex depending on the goods. While the Irish consumer is paying it if the duty makes the product more expensive than products produced locally or imported directly the UK exporter may be having to reduce there profit margin to remain competitive. Therefore reducing UK corporation tax payments.

If the duty are on goods made in China/India then the obvious solution is to set up and import directly. Again taking business away from the UK.

Of course. But that would be a very different headline to be commented on.

[Mrr T]

Deesee said:

Mrr T said:

The answer is possible more complex depending on the goods. While the Irish consumer is paying it if the duty makes the product more expensive than products produced locally or imported directly the UK exporter may be having to reduce there profit margin to remain competitive. Therefore reducing UK corporation tax payments.

If the duty are on goods made in China/India then the obvious solution is to set up and import directly. Again taking business away from the UK.

Not quite the UK and EU have a trade agreement on goods made in their and our area..

The EU we’re very clear they did not want goods of EU origin subject to tariffs into the Uk. ROW stuff we compete now as UK, they complete as the bloc.

• *

Irish retail businesses could always choose to have the imported tax paid by the French or Belgium and have it shipped directly for the EU… lol.. why bring 3rd country goods to the UK to be imported watch this space as they figure out we get 100% of customs charges and Ireland/France/Belgium only get 25%… far easier for us to do the heavy lifting on ROW imports and transship to EU.. Ireland is certainly better off.


We charge for transshipment, Ireland paying extra, however the more they spend…the more the gross contributors to the EU contribute… whom are Germany..

I am not an expert on this and if you are then I am wrong.

I understand the TCA may mean no duties on UK goods sold in the EU and visa versa. However, the definition of UK goods is based on the value added to the good in the UK. Below that value duties apply. So bringing goods into the UK will likely incur UK duty, exporting the goods to the EU, incurs EU duty if insufficient value is added in the UK.

So double duty. So either the exporter will have to cut margin to be competitive, or import directly into the EU.

[Deesee]

Mrr T said:

I am not an expert on this and if you are then I am wrong.

I understand the TCA may mean no duties on UK goods sold in the EU and visa versa. However, the definition of UK goods is based on the value added to the good in the UK. Below that value duties apply. So bringing goods into the UK will likely incur UK duty, exporting the goods to the EU, incurs EU duty if insufficient value is added in the UK.

So double duty. So either the exporter will have to cut margin to be competitive, or import directly into the EU.

• ANY* goods that are made/processed or incorporated into another goods, (think raw material for manufacture into goods) in the UK or EU is tariff free under the UK/EU trade agreement. 3rd Party finished 'toot' is taxed by the EU/UK in the same way.

If these goods happen to be transhipped from a 3rd country to the EU (or EU to EU via the UK) via the UK then a transhipment fee originates, not a tariff or fee.

UK value is that we have a very modern and efficient ports and custom clearance, that is entirely commercial not state owned or over unionised, we massively underplay our role in how good we are at these things.

If it was better value for the 3rd country wholesaler and or retailer to have EU to EU trade they would be doing this, & they are not..

Further deregulation will take place with 'FreePorts' we will see more goods arriving in the UK for Re/Manufacture, which will encourage post Brexit investment (already happening) Eg Nissan, Giga Factory in Somerset for example. The mega investments in super large LNG terminals in Wales and Kent and Gas/Electric interconnecters are also paying huge dividends and creating revenue for the UK.

In regards to everyday consumer goods, you will start to see on tags or packaging, not for UK or Not for EU, so that the goods are not 'double' taxed for the consumer. Have a look next time you are in the supermarket for example on goods such as bacon or a regional European ham, you will note in the UK it states 'not for EU'. This insures that the consumer is not at risk of being 'double' taxed, as it has been processed and or packed by a competent authority with the relevant HMRC/EU equivalent sign off.



Remember the EU used to take a very large fee from the UK of its GDI + 75% of customs fees + a % of all VAT spend.

Now UK pays no GDI fee, retains 100% of customs fees and retains all VAT proceedings as well as UK residents being able to reclaim VAT on EU purchases brought back to the UK & we are attracting world wide investment for very large infrastructure/manufacturing projects, we have somewhat in our region very low unemployment and approx 1m jobs that need filling.

Now its a bit of a joke that the bus stated 350 million extra a week for the NHS, however treasury are now doing a billion a week extra... UK plc is funding this.. Minimum wage from 2016 to 2024 practically doubled.. UK plc funding this too.. Meanwhile over the Channel, 30% youth unemployment, no access to UK job market, social unrest, the rise of the far right, I do grant its warmer and the foods a bit nicer, however the Dutch, Germans and the Danes can't do there social experiment without our help hence we will see more of this type of trade and poor Journalism from the 'remain' lefty press how the UK are charging more or fulling inflation does not really help imo..

& if the Irish are 'double taxing' their own consumers the EC will take all the cash, then fine them more in budget and the Irish consumer will end up paying more.

[Mrr T]

Deesee said:

Mrr T said:

I am not an expert on this and if you are then I am wrong.

I understand the TCA may mean no duties on UK goods sold in the EU and visa versa. However, the definition of UK goods is based on the value added to the good in the UK. Below that value duties apply. So bringing goods into the UK will likely incur UK duty, exporting the goods to the EU, incurs EU duty if insufficient value is added in the UK.

So double duty. So either the exporter will have to cut margin to be competitive, or import directly into the EU.

• ANY* goods that are made/processed or incorporated into another goods, (think raw material for manufacture into goods) in the UK or EU is tariff free under the UK/EU trade agreement. 3rd Party finished 'toot' is taxed by the EU/UK in the same way.

If these goods happen to be transhipped from a 3rd country to the EU (or EU to EU via the UK) via the UK then a transhipment fee originates, not a tariff or fee.

So I post about importing finished goods and you start off posting about raw materials. According to the poster the duties relate to goods from China/India so likely finished goods. So many UK importers of such goods set up EU entities to avoid the costs.

[Mrr T]

Deesee said:

UK value is that we have a very modern and efficient ports and custom clearance, that is entirely commercial not state owned or over unionised, we massively underplay our role in how good we are at these things.

If it was better value for the 3rd country wholesaler and or retailer to have EU to EU trade they would be doing this, & they are not..

Your right the UK ports are the biggest in Europe, except 2 second research shows they are some way down the list.

The fact is retailers including some who post here are and have set up EU entities to avoid the costs and inconvenience of UK/TH trade.

[Deesee]

Mrr T said:

So I post about importing finished goods and you start off posting about raw materials. According to the poster the duties relate to goods from China/India so likely finished goods. So many UK importers of such goods set up EU entities to avoid the costs.

UK Exporters of manufactured/re manufactured goods made in the EU/UK do not need to set up a company in the EU, they can (mainly) export tariff free.

The EU rules on goods of European (and now UK) origin are clear.

ROW finished goods within the rules on goods of european origin are taxed the same on arrival in the UK and EU.. however transhipment charges apply. Hence why UK owned companies have set up 'hubs' in say Luxembourg/Netherlands to import from ROW to distribute within EU, it's very important that EU countries follow the protocol from the EC and don't pass unfair charges to their own consumers/citizens.

However the cost of maintaining 2 distribution hubs within say 5/9 hours by truck has to be balanced by a just paying a transhipment charge, or perhaps even finishing the T-shirt/Jeans in the EU/UK.

Regardless of where the company is owned, if it is transhipped via the UK (such as the Primark clothes made in India shipped to UK then forwarded to Ireland) and is finished goods, transhipment charges apply.

[Deesee]

Mrr T said:

Deesee said:

UK value is that we have a very modern and efficient ports and custom clearance, that is entirely commercial not state owned or over unionised, we massively underplay our role in how good we are at these things.

If it was better value for the 3rd country wholesaler and or retailer to have EU to EU trade they would be doing this, & they are not..

Your right the UK ports are the biggest in Europe, except 2 second research shows they are some way down the list.

The fact is retailers including some who post here are and have set up EU entities to avoid the costs and inconvenience of UK/TH trade.

Antwerp and Rotterdam are vast, but are no where as efficient and cost effective as the UK ports, if you're importing goods.

We have the largest RORO ferry port in the world, and another google will show that the chunnel freight trains are being replaced and to be increased in size from 24 trucks to 36 trucks, and will go from 4 per hour to 7 per hour and an increase in speed to 130kph.. But you know Brexit Bad, imports down, exports down...

[CivicDuties]

Must be like Christmas today for all you Brexit lads. All those lovely new import checks and charges, win win win. Might as well leave the fairy lights up for the next round of wins, too.

Congratulations, boys, enjoy your big day.