Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Vanden Saab]

Mortarboard said:

Vanden Saab said:

one thing we can be sure of and that is that there will be no retained EU law in 2024

Regardless of the consequences, eh?

There is a clear split in Brexiters in this thread. Those who are pro-brexit, and those that are anti-EU.
Those that are anti-EU seem quite content with any cost or stupidity.

M.

But no split in remainers who to a man are determined that EU law takes priority over our own laws in our own legal system seemingly for as long as they can. Personally I cannot even image a reason why they would want this but I am sure they have their reasons.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/the-retained-eu...

link said:

Currently, retained direct EU legislation takes priority over domestic UK legislation passed prior to the end of the Transition Period when they are incompatible. The Bill will reverse this order of priority, to reinstate domestic law as the highest form of law on the UK statute book.

Despite HMs protestation that it is all just law and that for 'practical' purposes it is the same at the moment retained EU law takes precedence over ALL of our laws.

[HM-2]

Mortarboard said:

Vanden Saab said:

one thing we can be sure of and that is that there will be no retained EU law in 2024

Regardless of the consequences, eh?

It's not even really true. There's going to be plenty of "retained EU law", inasmuch as legislation that was written to the statue books by the Retained Legislation act which is incorporated into UK law in fundamentally the same form.

Vanden Saab said:

But no split in remainers who to a man are determined that EU law takes priority over our own laws in our own legal system seemingly for as long as they can.

You've repeated this mantra several times, but also acknowledged that no "EU law" takes precedence over UK law because all "retained EU law" is UK law. The two statements appear to be mutually incompatible.

Vanden Saab said:

Despite HMs protestation that it is all just law and that for 'practical' purposes it is the same at the moment retained EU law takes precedence over ALL of our laws.

This seems to stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the passing of legislation works in the UK. Retained EU law does not take precedent over domestic UK law (ignoring the fact retained law is domestic law for a moment) because it's somehow "more powerful" than domestic law, it takes precedent because it's been passed after domestic law. In our legal system, newer legislation can supercede, in whole or part, older legislation on the same issue, but not vice versa.

The paragraph you quote even says such itself, which you seem to have missed: "passed prior to the end of the Transition Period when they are incompatible"

So yes, it is "all just law".

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 23 January 08:06

[Scrump]

eharding said:

Is the thread page limit still a thing - I thought the code had been fixed, or is this an amnesty measure to allow those banned in the previous thread a chance of redemption?

As for the original question, the answer is still no.

Still a thing. We tried leaving threads to run but got glitches around 30k posts so have reinstated the volume change at 20k post intervals. (Was every 10k posts).

[Vanden Saab]

HM-2 said:

This seems to stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of how the passing of legislation works in the UK. Retained EU law does not take precedent over domestic UK law (ignoring the fact retained law is domestic law for a moment) because it's somehow "more powerful" than domestic law, it takes precedent because it's been passed after domestic law. In our legal system, newer legislation can supercede, in whole or part, older legislation on the same issue, but not vice versa.

The paragraph you quote even says such itself, which you seem to have missed: "passed prior to the end of the Transition Period when they are incompatible"

So yes, it is "all just law".

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 23 January 08:06

More reading and/or comprehension fail from you. You know this is incorrect as even EU law from 1972 has precedence over any UK law from before then until we left. It is quite clear and there are examples of later UK law having to be changed but absolutly none the other way of EU law having to be changed to suit UK laws.
I fail to see why you are even trying to argue a point that is perfectly clear in both the 1972 treaty and the retained law bill.

[HM-2]

Vanden Saab said:

More reading and/or comprehension fail from you.

Please go back and read what I posted. You're so busy falling over yourself to try and call out a nonexistent comprehension failure (which seems to be your basic retort to every single post you respond to at this point, you really and try to add some variety to your responses) that you've apparently missed the not very nuanced nuance in what I've said.

Vanden Saab said:

You know this is incorrect as even EU law from 1972 has precedence over any UK law from before then until we left.

Emphasis mine.

I never said or suggested otherwise, and if you think I did then it is you who has properly failed to read and/or comprehend.

Vanden Saab said:

It is quite clear and there are examples of later UK law having to be changed but absolutly none the other way of EU law having to be changed to suit UK laws.

Which is both true and irrelevant, as a) I never suggested that EU law didn't have primacy over UK law, and b) haven't been talking about EU law in general but "retained EU law", that is, law that is on the UK's statutes books as a result of the Retained Legislation Act and therefore supercedes existing UK law on those areas not because its derivation from EU law gives it primacy over other UK law on the subject, but because it supercedes it by virtue of being passed later.

You're either not understanding what I posted, don't understand what derived EU law is, don't understand how the legislative system functions in the UK, or a combination of all three.

Vanden Saab said:

I fail to see why you are even trying to argue a point

I'm not arguing the point you seem to think I'm arguing.
Go back, read what I posted, and try again. If I need to draw you a little diagram, I will do. Or alternatively you could properly read what you cited, because that affirms exactly what I've said.

For the purposes of avoiding confusion:

• EU law had primacy over UK law whilst the UK was part of the EU, but no longer does because the UK is not part of the EU
• Since the UK left the EU, retained legislation has been written to the UK statute books under the The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
• This retained UK legislation supersedes UK legislation where it was passed after that legislation- not because of the primacy of EU law, but simply by virtue of how legislation works in the UK.

I mean, it's literally in what you posted: "Currently, retained direct EU legislation takes priority over domestic UK legislation passed prior to the end of the Transition Period when they are incompatible" EU derived UK legislation passed under the Act takes priority over existing UK legislation where it was passed after it. Which is...how UK domestic legislation works.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 23 January 12:49

[Mrr T]

Mortarboard said:

Mrr T said:

So what should the UK be doing to achieve the benefits of brexit?

It's a very pertinent question.
Obligatory "look back":
During the referendum, brexit was touted to have loads of (potential) benefits. We all know there was/are many variations of brexits - not all individual specific benefits would be available in all brexit scenarios.

Brexit is at its core an opportunity to do things differently from how it was done before to the UK's advantage.
If that can't be achieved, then there was no point to brexit.

So what should the UK do?
Well first up, the administrative stuff that is still ongoing due to brexit. This alone is causing damage to the UK - whether some folk want to accept it or not. Its a fact. Such as:
-Get the border & customs changes complete. The fact that this was neither planned for nor resourced is almost criminal. It was known as soon as the vote was tallied that there would be major changes to the customs/border in all possible scenarios - with the exception of BRINO. There's been two elections since the vote, and this fundamental change still hasn't been dealt with. It's causing far more damage to both imports and exports than the costs of fixing the underlying issues
-Actually get on with the EU deal. Every other country can see how it's being drawn out. It's not a good look when you're trying to do deals internationally
-Fix the immigration issues. The UK currently looks hostile to immigrants. The UK is going to need an influx of skills of various types, like it or lump it. It's actively being a turn off at present. The attitude that thousands are coming across the channel in rubber boats means that the UK is the promised land? That's got to change.
-Stop the political point making that's costing the UK in cold hard cash. UKCA & UK Reach are completely superfluous and of absolutely no benefit to the UK.

All of those should be addressed immediately, even if it means borrowing in order to do so. It's never going to get any cheaper, and is costing UK dearly on a daily basis.

Looking forward, there are many areas where the UK can start taking advantage of the ability to do things differently (primarily when compared to the EU - lets face it, that's where the biggest deviations can be implemented)
-Farming. Fundamental changes will be needed from the EU "subsidise in the name of the environment" approach. Small farms may have the opportunity to go the route of craft/finer foods. Large farms will need to go more the "Agri PLC" route. Unfortunately, mid-size farms will likely loose out - but these seemed to be gaining no ground in the EU environment either.
-Pharma. Outside of the EU regulatory regime, the UK is going to face significant headwinds for retail drugs or any volume. There will still be opportunities for specialty drugs etc. However, a huge opportunity exists for API (active pharmaceutical ingredients). Huge amounts of these are simply bulk materials from places like india & china, processed and purified using validated using GMP (good manufacturing process - basically "pharma-lite"). There are also opportunities to manufacture other internationally regulated materials such as diagnostic materials (ISO13485 etc)
-Engineering. The UK has always been known for this. Time to start leveraging that from 2nd level and up.
-R&D of various types. Essentially a borderless industry.
-Tourism/ The UK offers much of what the rest of europe has, but now things like vat free shopping, and other schemes should be leveraged to the max. Plus there's no shortage or UK specific draws too.

But doing what the UK has been doing since 2016 isn't going to get the UK to where it needs to be.

Of course, mediocrity is also available instead.

M.

I hope it OK if I reply by section.

1. Border
While it's ridiculous after all this time. Putting more paperwork in supply chains will not improve brexit.

2. EU deal
The EU deal is done. If you mean up grade the deal that would mean taking a constructive approach to the EU. Not possible with the ERG holding the tory party ransome.

3. Immigration
I would agree but hard to do when your HS wants no more immigrants.

4. UKCA and Reach
I agree but no option once the decision was made to leave the SM.

As for the to do list.

1. Farming
I am sure we can do better but it not going to do much to reverse the brexit losses.
2. Pharm
I know nothing so no comment.
3. Engineering and R&D
How do we make this better without reversing some of the damage caused by brexit?
4.Tourism
We are good at it but if you have tried booking anything high season in the UK. It's seems its doing fine not sure how it can improved sufficient to cover the cost of brexit.
It does seem a very lightweight list. That not a criticism since the government also seems to be struggling to find benefits and they have far more resources.

Also read cranks post yesterday about encouraging investment in the UK. Well I suppose the fall in GBP will help. However, two other reason for investment where unrestricted trade with the EU and easy movement of labour both now gone.

[London424]

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/16174759...

Interesting French - German declaration on the way forward for the EU.

[Mortarboard]

Vanden Saab said:

But no split in remainers who to a man are determined that EU law takes priority over our own laws in our own legal system seemingly for as long as they can.

Really? You sure you're in the right thread?
The paranoia is strong.
Absolutely terrified of the idea of rejoining aren't you? You do know that's almost impossible, right?
You can relax. The votes done and over.

M.

[turbobloke]

Mortarboard said:

Vanden Saab said:

one thing we can be sure of and that is that there will be no retained EU law in 2024

Regardless of the consequences, eh?

M.

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum. Fundamental.

You don't like it? At this point, lump it. Years of whining have achieved nothing, more years of whining will achieve the same, and can be seen as talking the UK down. Great.

As to so-called splits, pro this and anti EU that, if the EU had got its sorry act together, and enough people saw it as a good thing overall, we'd still be in. We're out.

Thank EU for brexit.

[Vasco]

turbobloke said:

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum. Fundamental.

You don't like it? At this point, lump it. Years of whining have achieved nothing, more years of whining will achieve the same, and can be seen as talking the UK down. Great.

As to so-called splits, pro this and anti EU that, if the EU had got its sorry act together, and enough people saw it as a good thing overall, we'd still be in. We're out.

Thank EU for brexit.

Best post on here for a while.

[HM-2]

turbobloke said:

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum.

Some excellent confusion of correlation with causation there.

[Mortarboard]

Thanks T - section by section is easiest to follow

Mrr T said:

I hope it OK if I reply by section.

1. Border
While it's ridiculous after all this time. Putting more paperwork in supply chains will not improve brexit.

I'm not suggesting more paperwork. Simply activate the new rules & regs, resourec it properly, and allow businesses and folk to get used to it. The uncertainty as to what is required etc is discouraging business and ordinary people. There's no need for this uncertainty and start/stop changes.

Mrr T said:

2. EU deal
The EU deal is done. If you mean up grade the deal that would mean taking a constructive approach to the EU. Not possible with the ERG holding the tory party ransome.

No, I meant the deal is concluded - so implement it. Similar to the border/customs to & fro, it dicourages folk from investing, forgin new trade relationships etc until it solidifies.

Mrr T said:

3. Immigration
I would agree but hard to do when your HS wants no more immigrants.

HS will have to get over it. Lack of working bodies is bad enough these days, without making it worse. Employees are needed at all job levels, in almost all sectors - it's critical at this stage. The economic fallout from dragging our heels on this will be the worst aspect of the current Brexit mismanagement.

Mrr T said:

4. UKCA and Reach
I agree but no option once the decision was made to leave the SM.

Other way around - there was no need at all, for either of them. EU Reach & CE marking still have to be complied with outside of the UK anyway. It's like insisting that because a car might be used in countries that drive on the right as well as the left, UK produced cars will have a steering wheel on both sides (an absurd example, but essentially amounts to the same point about it being stupid)

Mrr T said:

As for the to do list.

1. Farming
I am sure we can do better but it not going to do much to reverse the brexit losses.

Not changing farming habits is going to be worse - farming will not survive. The mega farms may have some hope, but small & medium will be decimated if they try to use the EU farming model without the EU farming subsidies.

Mrr T said:

2. Pharm
I know nothing so no comment.

No bother. Posters in this forum tend to over estimate the size of the UK's pharma industry. Summary of my point - UK cannot compete with the EU in mainstream meds due to regulatory costs. Don't fight a doomed battle. Concentrate on where you have an real advantage.

Mrr T said:

3. Engineering and R&D
How do we make this better without reversing some of the damage caused by brexit?

Same as farming. Brexit is done. Change and thrive, or stagnate and die. Change is easily possible.

Mrr T said:

4.Tourism
We are good at it but if you have tried booking anything high season in the UK. It's seems its doing fine not sure how it can improved sufficient to cover the cost of brexit.

There's advantages there to promote "welcoming britain"

Mrr T said:

It does seem a very lightweight list. That not a criticism since the government also seems to be struggling to find benefits and they have far more resources.

It might appear lightweight, but imagine how brexit would be going now had it been implemented from the start? It would be a whole different UK now (in a good way)

Thanks for the detailed reply, btw.

M.

[blueg33]

Vasco said:

turbobloke said:

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum. Fundamental.

You don't like it? At this point, lump it. Years of whining have achieved nothing, more years of whining will achieve the same, and can be seen as talking the UK down. Great.

As to so-called splits, pro this and anti EU that, if the EU had got its sorry act together, and enough people saw it as a good thing overall, we'd still be in. We're out.

Thank EU for brexit.

Best post on here for a while.

Its totally unconstructive - hardly best post of anything TBH

[HM-2]

blueg33 said:

Its totally unconstructive - hardly best post of anything TBH

Quite- it's a default approach from turbobloke, refusing to acknowledge or respond to anyone else's posts and instead repeating the same meandering and entirely irrelevant nonsense like a broken record.

But there's no point calling him out on it because he'll just do it again regardless.

[Vasco]

blueg33 said:

Vasco said:

turbobloke said:

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum. Fundamental.

You don't like it? At this point, lump it. Years of whining have achieved nothing, more years of whining will achieve the same, and can be seen as talking the UK down. Great.

As to so-called splits, pro this and anti EU that, if the EU had got its sorry act together, and enough people saw it as a good thing overall, we'd still be in. We're out.

Thank EU for brexit.

Best post on here for a while.

Its totally unconstructive - hardly best post of anything TBH

It didn't need to all be ultra constructive. The final sentence sums up the situation very well.

[Mortarboard]

Vasco said:

It didn't need to all be ultra constructive. The final sentence sums up the situation very well.

True.

But Turbs viewpoint is:
We're out,brexit complete.

For those of us in the real world its:
We're out, brexit started.

M.

[Ridgemont]

London424 said:

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/16174759...

Interesting French - German declaration on the way forward for the EU.

Some interesting stuff in there..

“For the short term, we need to widen the fields where qualified majority voting applies in the Council to overcome the deadlocks that have been observed, such as on certain areas of Common Foreign and Security Policy and taxation”

Yep. No thanks!

[Vasco]

Ridgemont said:

London424 said:

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/16174759...

Interesting French - German declaration on the way forward for the EU.

Some interesting stuff in there..

“For the short term, we need to widen the fields where qualified majority voting applies in the Council to overcome the deadlocks that have been observed, such as on certain areas of Common Foreign and Security Policy and taxation”

Yep. No thanks!

Good of the EU to sum up why the UK was right to get out. Amazing that their citizens put up with such tripe.

[crankedup5]

Vasco said:

Ridgemont said:

London424 said:

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/16174759...

Interesting French - German declaration on the way forward for the EU.

Some interesting stuff in there..

“For the short term, we need to widen the fields where qualified majority voting applies in the Council to overcome the deadlocks that have been observed, such as on certain areas of Common Foreign and Security Policy and taxation”

Yep. No thanks!

Good of the EU to sum up why the UK was right to get out. Amazing that their citizens put up with such tripe.

Guy pops up on a regular basis urging Brussels to go faster on the road to Federalisation.

[blueg33]

Vasco said:

blueg33 said:

Vasco said:

turbobloke said:

Consequences of the democratic outcome of a lawful referendum. Fundamental.

You don't like it? At this point, lump it. Years of whining have achieved nothing, more years of whining will achieve the same, and can be seen as talking the UK down. Great.

As to so-called splits, pro this and anti EU that, if the EU had got its sorry act together, and enough people saw it as a good thing overall, we'd still be in. We're out.

Thank EU for brexit.

Best post on here for a while.

Its totally unconstructive - hardly best post of anything TBH

It didn't need to all be ultra constructive. The final sentence sums up the situation very well.

I didn’t use the term “ultra constructive “.

As for the last sentence, so many of the “issues” with the EU are total bks made up by the media and swallowed by the gullible.