Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Sadly for you, all the posturing and manoeuvring performed by MPs following the 2016 referendum proved to be toilet bowl value, thanks Boris.

Are you going to actually respond directly to anything I've said, or just post irrelevancies all evening? I'm far from convinced you're even capable of comprehending what my argument is, given this feeble display. It's almost unsporting.

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’. I’ve said ‘in principle’ and agreed that MPs are of course responsible to their constituents. But your are wrong in your statement that they have to comply with their constituents demands or wishes. The facts are MPs have to follow the Government whips instructions and tow the Party line, failure results in the fall out we all watched in recent years. What is said in books is one thing, real World pragmatic actions are sometimes required. That what Boris Johnson managed and he did as promised ‘get brexit done’.

Perhaps we are at cross purposes here, I’m referring to the debacle to ‘get brexit done’, you seem to be referring to ‘business as usual’ in Parliament.

Edited by crankedup5 on Saturday 25th March 09:35

[Pan Pan Pan]

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Sadly for you, all the posturing and manoeuvring performed by MPs following the 2016 referendum proved to be toilet bowl value, thanks Boris.

Are you going to actually respond directly to anything I've said, or just post irrelevancies all evening? I'm far from convinced you're even capable of comprehending what my argument is, given this feeble display. It's almost unsporting.

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’. I’ve said ‘in principle’ and agreed that MPs are of course responsible to their constituents. But your are wrong in your statement that they have to comply with their constituents demands or wishes. The facts are MPs have to follow the Government whips instructions and tow the Party line, failure results in the fall out we all watched in recent years. What is said in books is one thing, real World pragmatic actions are sometimes required. That what Boris Johnson managed and he did as promised ‘get brexit done’.

Perhaps we are at cross purposes here, I’m referring to the debacle to ‘get brexit done’, you seem to be referring to ‘business as usual’ in Parliament.

Edited by crankedup5 on Saturday 25th March 09:35

We are seeing what happens in France when democracy is over ruled by a politician.
NO one voted, or was even given the chance to vote on whether or not they wanted the UK to be a member of the EU until 2016, when they were finally given their FIRST and only vote on the matter.
The liberal party even tried to get the democratic vote overturned, which is why the liberal party really should stop calling themselves the liberal `democrats' because they (and some others ) have shown that they dont believe in democracy, if a democratic vote does not go the way `they' wanted it to.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’.

This simply goes to show that you either haven't read, or don't understand, what I've read. I'll ask again.

Why do you think MPs should vote against the views and interests of their constituents?

How can you reasonably argue that the current Conservative party is a "broad church" given they purged nearly every MP who either supported remaining in the EU, or a post-Brexit deal softer than the one we ended up with?

crankedup5 said:

The facts are MPs have to follow the Government whips instructions and tow the Party line

Actually they don't "have" to do so. In order MPs must:

1) Act for the good of the country.
2) Act in the interests of their constituents.
3) Act in accordance with their party's instruction.

The need to act in the interest of constituents is supreme over the need to act in accordance with the party. I suspect you have no issue with ERG loonies voting against their party and whips when it comes to the Windsor Framework, but parliamentarians in remain voting constituencies who vote in line with their constituents views are "traitors".

crankedup5 said:

What is said in books is one thing, real World pragmatic actions are sometimes required.

Ah yes, bowing to the demands of the small but vocal regressive ERG is "pragmatism".

crankedup5 said:

you seem to be referring to ‘business as usual’ in Parliament.

Yup, you have absolutely no idea what you're replying to.

[turbobloke]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’.

This simply goes to show that you either haven't read, or don't understand, what I've read. I'll ask again.

Why do you think MPs should vote against the views and interests of their constituents?

Because they can, and plenty think they know best, so they do.

MPs are free to act in the national interest or indeed their own, regardless of constituents' views. A philosopher put it like this, in a quote reflecting the all male composition of the HoC at the time. The unbiased and enlightened elements were and are a tad optimistic, but the point being made applied then as it does now, even after the advent of twittering.

Edmund Burke said:

His unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

[HM-2]

turbobloke said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’.

This simply goes to show that you either haven't read, or don't understand, what I've read. I'll ask again.

Why do you think MPs should vote against the views and interests of their constituents?

Because they can, and plenty think they know best, so they do.

You aren't answering the question. "They should because they can" doesn't really make much sense.

[turbobloke]

HM-2 said:

turbobloke said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’.

This simply goes to show that you either haven't read, or don't understand, what I've read. I'll ask again.

Why do you think MPs should vote against the views and interests of their constituents?

Because they can, and plenty think they know best, so they do.

You aren't answering the question. "They should because they can" doesn't really make much sense.

You aren't reading the full post, which gave a more complete response than claimed above. In addition to pointing out that MPs have the freedom to do so, I added a note about typical MP arrogance in terms of thinking they know best. There was also a somewhat philosophical take on the matter from Burke. By all means carry on the 5 minute argument to a full half hour, with yourself or another volunteer. It's still busy busy here, with work still hectic such that it's possible to enjoy moonlit uplands on the late shift, so it's important not to waste too much valuable PH time pointing out the bleedin' obvious.

[HM-2]

turbobloke said:

You aren't reading the full post, which gave a more complete response than claimed above. In addition to pointing out that MPs have the freedom to do so, I added a note about typical MP arrogance in terms of thinking they know best.

I'm still not hearing any "should", least of all one that actually related to the context which the posts were made in, but never mind. Given you've failed to offer an actual response to the question asked, maybe crankedup5 wants to have a go at articulating why he thinks Remain supporting MPs in strongly Remain constituencies should vote in alignment with the national outcome of the referendum rather than in alignment with the interests of their constituents. He is, after all, the one whose claiming they "should" vote for brexit regardless of those constituents.

[Vanden Saab]

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

You have no argument at all, look back at the events following the 2016 referendum for the answers to your ‘argument’.

This simply goes to show that you either haven't read, or don't understand, what I've read. I'll ask again.

Why do you think MPs should vote against the views and interests of their constituents?

How can you reasonably argue that the current Conservative party is a "broad church" given they purged nearly every MP who either supported remaining in the EU, or a post-Brexit deal softer than the one we ended up with?

crankedup5 said:

The facts are MPs have to follow the Government whips instructions and tow the Party line

Actually they don't "have" to do so. In order MPs must:

1) Act for the good of the country.
2) Act in the interests of their constituents.
3) Act in accordance with their party's instruction.

The need to act in the interest of constituents is supreme over the need to act in accordance with the party. I suspect you have no issue with ERG loonies voting against their party and whips when it comes to the Windsor Framework, but parliamentarians in remain voting constituencies who vote in line with their constituents views are "traitors".

crankedup5 said:

What is said in books is one thing, real World pragmatic actions are sometimes required.

Ah yes, bowing to the demands of the small but vocal regressive ERG is "pragmatism".

crankedup5 said:

you seem to be referring to ‘business as usual’ in Parliament.

Yup, you have absolutely no idea what you're replying to.

All this was resolved 2019, you are trying to make an argument that was settled years ago. Democracy always wins out. You are simply having a rant against politics which you dislike and disagree with.

[crankedup5]

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

I can’t shout about democracy and then bemoan their right to protest or campaign, but I can laugh.

[Mortarboard]

crankedup5 said:

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

I can’t shout about democracy and then bemoan their right to protest or campaign, but I can laugh.

True.
Becoming a niche viewpoint though...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-...

M.

[blueg33]

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

Strange. It was predominantly old people who voted for.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

All this was resolved 2019, you are trying to make an argument that was settled years ago.

You keep asserting this, but are extremely reticent to actually explain why or how. Or indeed provide any justification for the fldim.i was addressing. But it's fine, I'll just chalk it up as you being unable.

[Vanden Saab]

Mortarboard said:

crankedup5 said:

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

I can’t shout about democracy and then bemoan their right to protest or campaign, but I can laugh.

True.
Becoming a niche viewpoint though...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-...

M.

Not really, there is still no majority to rejoin. Not sure why you posted a poll on how the Gov. is handling Brexit as I would imagine as many Leavers as remainers think they are not doing that very well.




The question of if we should rejoin still does not have any more numbers than voted no in 2016. Still below 50%


https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-u...

[sugerbear]

Vanden Saab said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup5 said:

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

I can’t shout about democracy and then bemoan their right to protest or campaign, but I can laugh.

True.
Becoming a niche viewpoint though...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-...

M.

Not really, there is still no majority to rejoin. Not sure why you posted a poll on how the Gov. is handling Brexit as I would imagine as many Leavers as remainers think they are not doing that very well.




The question of if we should rejoin still does not have any more numbers than voted no in 2016. Still below 50%


https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-u...

The great thing about polls is you can look at the data they have used. This poll covers a time from a time from period of 2020 until 2023 and is made up of 116 different polls.

the funny thing is that in 2020 the numbers wanting to rejoin were indeed about 50/50 each way. Just looking at one recent poll from Delta the % wanting to return to EU membership is now 48% vs 38% for staying out of the EU.

So thanks for confirming there is now a majority in the UK who want to end the madness.

[HM-2]

Vanden Saab said:

Not really, there is still no majority to rejoin.

I don't recall anyone saying or suggesting there was. You can protest against the Brexit we have without wanting to rejoin the EU, can you not? It seems a sizeable majority think the government's handling of Brexit has been a complete dog's dinner, as the polling posted above shows.

Also, according to your own poll, whilst an outright majority may not support rejoining the EU, a plurality do- it's very significantly more popular than remaining outside of the EU. I don't know why you think "a majority", rather than a plurality, matters here.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 26th March 09:59

[Vanden Saab]

HM-2 said:

Vanden Saab said:

Not really, there is still no majority to rejoin.

I don't recall anyone saying or suggesting there was. You can protest against the Brexit we have without wanting to rejoin the EU, can you not? It seems a sizeable majority think the government's handling of Brexit has been a complete dog's dinner, as the polling posted above shows.

Also, according to your own poll, whilst an outright majority may not support rejoining the EU, a plurality do- it's very significantly more popular than remaining outside of the EU. I don't know why you think "a majority", rather than a plurality, matters here.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 26th March 09:59

What exactly does 'niche viewpoint mean?

And thanks for agreeing with me on the Governments handling of Brexit not sure why you put that in...

Good to see you are now once again adding don't knows to your side, how did that go in 2016?

[Mrr T]

Vanden Saab said:

Mortarboard said:

crankedup5 said:

Vanden Saab said:

A few old people protesting against Brexit in Leeds. Never mind, they will not be around long...

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/rejoin-eu-pr...

Yorkshire post reported 'hundreds' of people ...and posted this picture...

I can’t shout about democracy and then bemoan their right to protest or campaign, but I can laugh.

True.
Becoming a niche viewpoint though...
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/how-...

M.

Not really, there is still no majority to rejoin. Not sure why you posted a poll on how the Gov. is handling Brexit as I would imagine as many Leavers as remainers think they are not doing that very well.




The question of if we should rejoin still does not have any more numbers than voted no in 2016. Still below 50%


https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/should-the-u...

You seem to be comparing a poll which allows you to select don't know with a referendum which allowed only yes or no.

I would suggest the poll shows a referendum on rejoining may win.

Not sure we will have a referendum in the next 5 years but its clear the direction is towards much closer cooperation.

[Randy Winkman]

Pan Pan Pan said:

We are seeing what happens in France when democracy is over ruled by a politician.
NO one voted, or was even given the chance to vote on whether or not they wanted the UK to be a member of the EU until 2016, when they were finally given their FIRST and only vote on the matter.
The liberal party even tried to get the democratic vote overturned, which is why the liberal party really should stop calling themselves the liberal `democrats' because they (and some others ) have shown that they dont believe in democracy, if a democratic vote does not go the way `they' wanted it to.

Their manifesto said:
" The election of a Liberal Democrat majority government on a clear stop Brexit platform will provide a democratic mandate to stop this mess, revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU. "

I don't think that's undemocratic. It's about new, democratically elected majority government doing something different from the previous one.

[HM-2]

Vanden Saab said:

What exactly does 'niche viewpoint mean?

I don't know where you've got the idea anyone was talking about this. The read I got from Mortarboard's comment and its context is that he's suggesting support for Brexit is becoming a niche view.

Vanden Saab said:

Good to see you are now once again adding don't knows to your side

Eh?

I'm not adding "don't knows" to any side, nor have I ever done so. I have absolutely no idea where you possibly could have got this from. Reading comprehension continues to pose you challenges, it would seem.

Edited by HM-2 on Sunday 26th March 10:59