Trans woman convicted rapist sent to female prison
Discussion
bobbo89 said:
I'm not here to 'win' or 'troll' anything. Just pointing out that as a gay guy i'm not down with the whole idea of that we all fit into line and shout the same mantras.
I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
You are part of LGBT community. I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
Community doesn’t mean consensus.
You seem to be pigeon holing at least 2 groups of people while saying you don’t like being pigeon holed. Mostly because of a misunderstanding of how ‘community’ is used IMO.
Edited by gregs656 on Saturday 18th March 21:48
Clockwork Cupcake said:
LunarOne said:
Decided to look in on this thread since it's hovering near the top of What's New. I usually keep out of threads like this as I find them caustic and unpleasant, but I'd been holding out hope that perhaps PH was changing for the better. I can see that there are certainly a few enlightened beings posting, but sadly the thread seems to have gone much as I feared it would have. Sigh...
Given your length of membership, would you not say that things are better now than they were 10 years ago? My experience is that, certain usual suspects aside, PH is much more trans-friendly now than it was. So, in my humble opinion, I would say that it *is* better than it was. Or perhaps you are saying that it peaked and is now in decline with respect to tolerance? Perhaps you're right - I tend to stay away from these kind of threads these days as I got burned out on constantly having to defend my right to exist.
I do remember that 20 years ago, trans people as we know them today described themselves using quite different terminology than is used now, and it was viewed as more of an oddity. I imagine that people were at their most understanding in the post Nadia from Big Brother days, and that things peaked around the time that Caitlyn Jenner came out. After that, there was a lot of debate in the U.S. about who should be allowed to use what restroom, with States banning people from using facilities which did not match people's birth certificates. As soon as the government in the UK started debating relaxing the rules and talked about self-determination for gender identity, the number of people who were vocal about trans people whilst not being trans themselves, seemed to swell and the anti-trans cause was adopted by a group of mainly women who wanted to whip up fear about supposed "men" being able to access women's spaces. I guess none of these women had ever met a transvestite out and about, or they'd know that men had been using women's toilet facilities without incident for decades. The anti-trans women became collectively known as TERFs, and began a campaign of claiming that there was some sort of trans "agenda", as if having a medical condition and fighting for prompt and effective treatment of that condition is having an "agenda". And then JK Rowling got involved, and she seems to have caused a huge amount of divisiveness among people who know very little about trans people.
So I think that things were much better for trans people (in the UK at least) 10 or 15 years ago, and people who didn't get it just didn't bother getting involved. Now, every man, woman and their dogs seems to want to weigh in with an opinion on the subject, and things are objectively worse now than they were in the past.
Everyone is free to express their opinion on PH from behind the curtain of anonymity and I've seen some things said about trans people that they wouldn't dare to express about other protected characteristics. If similar things were posted about black or gay people, or people from Pakistan, then those posts would be removed pretty promptly by PH admins and the posters banned. But threads filled with anti-trans rhetoric are left to fester, going on for page after page. As someone who has known and is friends with trans people, this doesn't surprise me one bit, but it does sadden me.
LunarOne said:
Everyone is free to express their opinion on PH from behind the curtain of anonymity and I've seen some things said about trans people that they wouldn't dare to express about other protected characteristics. If similar things were posted about black or gay people, or people from Pakistan, then those posts would be removed pretty promptly by PH admins and the posters banned. But threads filled with anti-trans rhetoric are left to fester, going on for page after page.
It's funny you should say that. I very rarely report posts to the mods. Mainly because their default response is to delete the post and frankly I would rather the post remains for all to see because deleting it deprives people of seeing the real poster (in the sense that it lends legitimacy to their remaining posts)
TL;DR - Deleting dickish posts leaves the dick looking like less of a dick
(I could probably express this better if I was sober)
gregs656 said:
bobbo89 said:
I'm not here to 'win' or 'troll' anything. Just pointing out that as a gay guy i'm not down with the whole idea of that we all fit into line and shout the same mantras.
I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
You are part of LGBT community. I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
Community doesn’t mean consensus.
You seem to be pigeon holing at least 2 groups of people while saying you don’t like being pigeon holed. Mostly because of a misunderstanding of how ‘community’ is used IMO.
Edited by gregs656 on Saturday 18th March 21:48
bobbo89 said:
gregs656 said:
bobbo89 said:
I'm not here to 'win' or 'troll' anything. Just pointing out that as a gay guy i'm not down with the whole idea of that we all fit into line and shout the same mantras.
I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
You are part of LGBT community. I take issue with people assuming that because I'm gay that means I'm part of some 'community'.
Community doesn’t mean consensus.
You seem to be pigeon holing at least 2 groups of people while saying you don’t like being pigeon holed. Mostly because of a misunderstanding of how ‘community’ is used IMO.
Edited by gregs656 on Saturday 18th March 21:48
Even if I agreed with the statement they have nothing to do with each other (which I don’t because of the high level of gender non-conformity within the wider queer community) there is extensive historical evidence of the broad cross section between same sex attracted people and trans people.
That is, you can think trans people and gay people have nothing in common but all the evidence is to the contrary. I think it is reasonable to advance that a reason for that is that trans people have complex terrain to navigate when it comes to sexuality.
Just this week I read a ‘humans of Amsterdam’ post which featured a Dutch trans woman who, decades ago, moved to Amsterdam before their transition, worked in gay bars and eventually found a boyfriend who supported their transition - although the relationship didn’t survive. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that now she has transitioned she has no connection to gay spaces, or is somehow disconnected from their own experience. If anything it would be amplified.
Another angle is that trans people have always been sidelined within the community. We were quite happy to have the solidarity at Stonewall but a lot of those women were rejected in the years that followed. If what you assert is true then you would either expect that attitude to have continued, or you might have expected an initial enthusiasm for a joint cause that tapered off. What has actually happened is the reverse. Trans people have more inclusion, more visibility and on the whole wider acceptance.
Rufus Stone said:
Anyone know how the T became attached to the LGB umbrella?
Well, shoot me down if I am wrong here, but I suspect that T issues are pretty much identical to LGB issues and some pretty decent people thought "Hey, whilst we are trying to make the world a better place..."I mean, obviously they didn't consult with bobbo89 first or they might have said "Nah, f
k those tranny weirdo fkers" but fortunately they didn't. Instead they widened the umbrella of inclusiveness to include others. Clockwork Cupcake said:
Well, shoot me down if I am wrong here, but I suspect that T issues are pretty much identical to LGB issues and some pretty decent people thought "Hey, whilst we are trying to make the world a better place..."
I mean, obviously they didn't consult with bobbo89 first or they might have said "Nah, fk those tranny weirdo fkers" but fortunately they didn't. Instead they widened the umbrella of inclusiveness to include others.
Errrr, okay.I mean, obviously they didn't consult with bobbo89 first or they might have said "Nah, f
k those tranny weirdo fkers" but fortunately they didn't. Instead they widened the umbrella of inclusiveness to include others. Rufus Stone said:
Errrr, okay.
Also, you asked a question and I provided an answer. If you want a fuller answer then if you literally paste your question into google then the first result is a glossary from Stonewall and the 2nd is an article from the NY Times https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/style/lgbtq-gen...
So, as I said in my more flippant reply, it is about inclusivity. I get that some people want to exclude some from inclusivity (some kind of Venn thing I assume) but fortunately the majority (of the minority) want to include.
LunarOne said:
Everyone is free to express their opinion on PH from behind the curtain of anonymity and I've seen some things said about trans people that they wouldn't dare to express about other protected characteristics. If similar things were posted about black or gay people, or people from Pakistan, then those posts would be removed pretty promptly by PH admins and the posters banned. But threads filled with anti-trans rhetoric are left to fester, going on for page after page. As someone who has known and is friends with trans people, this doesn't surprise me one bit, but it does sadden me.
Can't argue with this.I think I see at one vile post that's been deleted and it highlights that for some people it never seems to get far beyond crude jibes about changing rooms and toilets.
You wouldn't say that filth to someone's face so why do it on here?
It's an odd obsession.
gregs656 said:
You are, because that is how the community is defined and you are therefore part of it. It’s not something you choose. I imagine your search history for example would flag up on Google’s metrics for LGBT people, and they could laser in on it from there. You will see things that are marketed to LGBT people. You probably have LGBT apps - for example the tag line for Grindr is ‘Meet & date local LGBT people’. There are aspects of healthcare that are targeted to the LGBT community. It’s just how it is.
Even if I agreed with the statement they have nothing to do with each other (which I don’t because of the high level of gender non-conformity within the wider queer community) there is extensive historical evidence of the broad cross section between same sex attracted people and trans people.
That is, you can think trans people and gay people have nothing in common but all the evidence is to the contrary. I think it is reasonable to advance that a reason for that is that trans people have complex terrain to navigate when it comes to sexuality.
Just this week I read a ‘humans of Amsterdam’ post which featured a Dutch trans woman who, decades ago, moved to Amsterdam before their transition, worked in gay bars and eventually found a boyfriend who supported their transition - although the relationship didn’t survive. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that now she has transitioned she has no connection to gay spaces, or is somehow disconnected from their own experience. If anything it would be amplified.
Another angle is that trans people have always been sidelined within the community. We were quite happy to have the solidarity at Stonewall but a lot of those women were rejected in the years that followed. If what you assert is true then you would either expect that attitude to have continued, or you might have expected an initial enthusiasm for a joint cause that tapered off. What has actually happened is the reverse. Trans people have more inclusion, more visibility and on the whole wider acceptance.
Do I not have a choice in this? It seems pretty fEven if I agreed with the statement they have nothing to do with each other (which I don’t because of the high level of gender non-conformity within the wider queer community) there is extensive historical evidence of the broad cross section between same sex attracted people and trans people.
That is, you can think trans people and gay people have nothing in common but all the evidence is to the contrary. I think it is reasonable to advance that a reason for that is that trans people have complex terrain to navigate when it comes to sexuality.
Just this week I read a ‘humans of Amsterdam’ post which featured a Dutch trans woman who, decades ago, moved to Amsterdam before their transition, worked in gay bars and eventually found a boyfriend who supported their transition - although the relationship didn’t survive. It doesn’t make sense to suggest that now she has transitioned she has no connection to gay spaces, or is somehow disconnected from their own experience. If anything it would be amplified.
Another angle is that trans people have always been sidelined within the community. We were quite happy to have the solidarity at Stonewall but a lot of those women were rejected in the years that followed. If what you assert is true then you would either expect that attitude to have continued, or you might have expected an initial enthusiasm for a joint cause that tapered off. What has actually happened is the reverse. Trans people have more inclusion, more visibility and on the whole wider acceptance.
king homophobic to me to force team me with another group just because of my sexuality. Again, no. I'm not part of any sort of community, no flag or letter salad represents me nor do I identify with any of it.
bobbo89 said:
Do I not have a choice in this? It seems pretty fking homophobic to me to force team me with another group just because of my sexuality.
Again, no. I'm not part of any sort of community, no flag or letter salad represents me nor do I identify with any of it.
You do indeed have a choice, You have exercised your choice and you have made your stance eminently clear. We get that you distance yourself from any idea of inclusivity or acceptance towards trans people. king homophobic to me to force team me with another group just because of my sexuality. Again, no. I'm not part of any sort of community, no flag or letter salad represents me nor do I identify with any of it.
We get it.
Clockwork Cupcake said:
You do indeed have a choice, You have exercised your choice and you have made your stance eminently clear. We get that you distance yourself from any idea of inclusivity or acceptance towards trans people.
We get it.
I can be accepting of trans people without having to be part of some sort of group or community, exactly in the same way straight people can. We get it.
bobbo89 said:
Clockwork Cupcake said:
You do indeed have a choice, You have exercised your choice and you have made your stance eminently clear. We get that you distance yourself from any idea of inclusivity or acceptance towards trans people.
We get it.
I can be accepting of trans people without having to be part of some sort of group or community, exactly in the same way straight people can. We get it.
I’m sure people don’t make the mistake of assuming you’re as inclusive as them after they meet you.
. Being inclusive means being inclusive to everyone as much as you can.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff