Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4

[bloomen]

youngsyr said:

So are the US and quite frankly just as they can say "not our problem", so can we.

Brexit was supposed to be about making the most of our attributes as a standalone country, well here's our chance. Let the EU deal with it and save us some much needed money.

Best of luck with your plans.

[borcy]

youngsyr said:

bloomen said:

youngsyr said:

I wonder if it's time for us to follow in the US's footsteps, face up to the fact that we were only ever a junior partner in the World Police and without the US's involvement we should step back too, mainly because we can't afford to be handing money to anyone and for the moment at least, this is continental Europe's problem, not ours?

We are in that pesky NATO and I doubt any other country stepping up is awash with spare cash either.

War in Europe may not mean we're anywhere near any land action, but there's still a lot of damage Russia can do to us underwater, in the air and in cyberspace and they seem weirdly fixated on our role in their torment.

So are the US and quite frankly just as they can say "not our problem", so can we.

Brexit was supposed to be about making the most of our attributes as a standalone country, well here's our chance. Let the EU deal with it and save us some much needed money.

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

[youngsyr]

borcy said:

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

That's an overly simplistic view - even if the Russians take Ukraine, which I highly doubt Germany and France will let happen, those two countries still stand between us and the Russians.

Not to mention the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians who won't stand for Russia invading Western Europe.

I put the chances of that war ever ending up on our doorstep as zero, as by then the US will be forced to join in, or see Europe entirely dominated by Russia.

[youngsyr]

bloomen said:

youngsyr said:

So are the US and quite frankly just as they can say "not our problem", so can we.

Brexit was supposed to be about making the most of our attributes as a standalone country, well here's our chance. Let the EU deal with it and save us some much needed money.

Best of luck with your plans.

Weird, I thought this was a discussion forum - guess not?

[borcy]

youngsyr said:

borcy said:

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

That's an overly simplistic view - even if the Russians take Ukraine, which I highly doubt Germany and France will let happen, those two countries still stand between us and the Russians.

Not to mention the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians who won't stand for Russia invading Western Europe.

I put the chances of that war ever ending up on our doorstep as zero, as by then the US will be forced to join in, or see Europe entirely dominated by Russia.

Do things only affect us if they are on our doorstep?

If anything I'd say you had a simplistic view. Why should France let it happen but not us?

[pinchmeimdreamin]

youngsyr said:

borcy said:

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

That's an overly simplistic view - even if the Russians take Ukraine, which I highly doubt Germany and France will let happen, those two countries still stand between us and the Russians.

Not to mention the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians who won't stand for Russia invading Western Europe.

I put the chances of that war ever ending up on our doorstep as zero, as by then the US will be forced to join in, or see Europe entirely dominated by Russia.

So we just sit back and let the rest of Europe try and stop them heading our way and then as a last resort we bring in the US ?

Do we thank them for that in the end or just sit on our little island and carry on as if nothing happened ?

[hidetheelephants]

We're in NATO, if you don't like it lobby your representative.

[bloomen]

pinchmeimdreamin said:

Do we thank them for that in the end or just sit on our little island and carry on as if nothing happened ?

It would be open season on the entire Axis of Anglo Saxon Evil. No one gets left behind.

They'll hit us with every cyber trick they have, chop every undersea cable they can find and no doubt there are plenty of other plans to cripple from afar.

If we told Johnny Foreigner he was jolly well on his own from today, plenty of British weapons have already blown up plenty of Russian army.

Edited by bloomen on Wednesday 27th March 23:10

[B'stard Child]

youngsyr said:

bloomen said:

youngsyr said:

I wonder if it's time for us to follow in the US's footsteps, face up to the fact that we were only ever a junior partner in the World Police and without the US's involvement we should step back too, mainly because we can't afford to be handing money to anyone and for the moment at least, this is continental Europe's problem, not ours?

We are in that pesky NATO and I doubt any other country stepping up is awash with spare cash either.

War in Europe may not mean we're anywhere near any land action, but there's still a lot of damage Russia can do to us underwater, in the air and in cyberspace and they seem weirdly fixated on our role in their torment.

So are the US and quite frankly just as they can say "not our problem", so can we.

Brexit was supposed to be about making the most of our attributes as a standalone country, well here's our chance. Let the EU deal with it and save us some much needed money.

Wow......... Just slightly fking bitter - it's not a Brexit thread

The EU couldn't run a bath and they've always spent money they don't have.

How did you deal with a bully at school (or in life) roll over and hand over your lunch

Russia needs to be put back in their box and very firmly shown that they should bloody well stay there

[oddball1313]

If Russia wins the war in Ukraine the UK and Europe are going to end up spending 8-9% GDP on defense. They are currently investing 40% GDP at the moment and if sustained once Ukraine is supressed will continue to push into other areas, it is in everyones interest to support Ukraine with as much assistance as possible to hopefully force Russia into bankruptcy, its the cheapest option for all concerned

[wiffmaster]

oddball1313 said:

If Russia wins the war in Ukraine the UK and Europe are going to end up spending 8-9% GDP on defense. They are currently investing 40% GDP at the moment and if sustained once Ukraine is supressed will continue to push into other areas, it is in everyones interest to support Ukraine with as much assistance as possible to hopefully force Russia into bankruptcy, its the cheapest option for all concerned

Russia is spending 40% of their government budget on defence, not 40% of GDP.

But I totally agree with your sentiment; the UK and EU really needs to ramp up military production and throw a lot more money at defence.

[RichFN2]

Youngsyr you need to take a step back, look at the bigger picture and run through a few scenarios that might happen should we completely abandon Ukraine.

Firstly we need to remind ourselves that the independent county Ukraine was invaded by Russia in an unprovoked attack. When this went past the 3 day marker Russia then resorted to rape, torture, genocide and bombing civilians with absolutely no regret for their own army. Is this a country you want to succeed and get closer to us?

We have no idea who will win this war, but it's either Russia, Ukraine or a truce/stalemate. If we and other countries walk away from Ukraine then Russia will have a huge advantage and will likely succeed.

There is also the danger of this war escalating and spreading to neighbouring countries, we need to do everything we can to keep this in Eastern Ukraine while grinding Russia down.

[youngsyr]

hidetheelephants said:

We're in NATO, if you don't like it lobby your representative.

So are the US.

Ukraine aren't.

[youngsyr]

pinchmeimdreamin said:

youngsyr said:

borcy said:

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

That's an overly simplistic view - even if the Russians take Ukraine, which I highly doubt Germany and France will let happen, those two countries still stand between us and the Russians.

Not to mention the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians who won't stand for Russia invading Western Europe.

I put the chances of that war ever ending up on our doorstep as zero, as by then the US will be forced to join in, or see Europe entirely dominated by Russia.

So we just sit back and let the rest of Europe try and stop them heading our way and then as a last resort we bring in the US ?

Do we thank them for that in the end or just sit on our little island and carry on as if nothing happened ?

Do you think Russia wants to invade the rest of Europe?

If not, then your question is moot.

If so, then I think you need your head examined.

[youngsyr]

borcy said:

youngsyr said:

borcy said:

We're a bit closer to Ukraine as are our neighbours. The closer you are to a problem the bigger the problem.

That's an overly simplistic view - even if the Russians take Ukraine, which I highly doubt Germany and France will let happen, those two countries still stand between us and the Russians.

Not to mention the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians who won't stand for Russia invading Western Europe.

I put the chances of that war ever ending up on our doorstep as zero, as by then the US will be forced to join in, or see Europe entirely dominated by Russia.

Do things only affect us if they are on our doorstep?

If anything I'd say you had a simplistic view. Why should France let it happen but not us?

No, but we can't afford to be the World's policeman. The EU was set up for this sort of thing, it's on their doorstep. Let them deal with it.

[youngsyr]

RichFN2 said:

Youngsyr you need to take a step back, look at the bigger picture and run through a few scenarios that might happen should we completely abandon Ukraine.

Firstly we need to remind ourselves that the independent county Ukraine was invaded by Russia in an unprovoked attack. When this went past the 3 day marker Russia then resorted to rape, torture, genocide and bombing civilians with absolutely no regret for their own army. Is this a country you want to succeed and get closer to us?

We have no idea who will win this war, but it's either Russia, Ukraine or a truce/stalemate. If we and other countries walk away from Ukraine then Russia will have a huge advantage and will likely succeed.

There is also the danger of this war escalating and spreading to neighbouring countries, we need to do everything we can to keep this in Eastern Ukraine while grinding Russia down.

My point is that "we" don't need to do anything. Let the continental Europeans sort it out.

Posters on here seem to have an over-inflated opinion of the UK's importance in the Ukraine-Russian Conflict, IMO.

[hidetheelephants]

youngsyr said:

hidetheelephants said:

We're in NATO, if you don't like it lobby your representative.

So are the US.

Ukraine aren't.

NATO members in eastern europe are concerned about their security should Ukraine be defeated by Russia. I share their concern.

[youngsyr]

hidetheelephants said:

youngsyr said:

hidetheelephants said:

We're in NATO, if you don't like it lobby your representative.

So are the US.

Ukraine aren't.

NATO members in eastern europe are concerned about their security should Ukraine be defeated by Russia. I share their concern.

As they should be. Best they pony up and deal with the problem, eh?

I've taken the st side of Brexit for 8 years, about time we got some of the payback, wouldn't you say?

[hidetheelephants]

NATO said:

Article 5

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.”

[B'stard Child]

youngsyr said:

As they should be. Best they pony up and deal with the problem, eh?

I've taken the st side of Brexit for 8 years, about time we got some of the payback, wouldn't you say?

I've seen both good and bad sides of brexit

If you think that the EU are going to deal with it successfully I've several bridges for sale