Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4
Discussion
TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
The US conspiracy theory loons are all over social media saying the politicians are all getting massive bribes to pass the legislation. The mindset of some sectors of US society is quite incredible…….
Rumblestripe said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
On that point I heard that within hours of the bill passing in the US, trucks full of PAC2 and PAC3 missiles for the Patriot SAM systems rolled across the borders into Ukraine.
Digga said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Considering the size of the Russian military they should be stronger.
Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
The only thing that surprises me is that you are the least bit surprised.Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
This is Russian military tactics 101. Sadly, the majority of people recruited are poorly educated and with few other prospects. They all believe the state media. They have been educated to believe Russia is the main player. They do not question.
Oliver Hardy said:
Rumblestripe said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
On that point I heard that within hours of the bill passing in the US, trucks full of PAC2 and PAC3 missiles for the Patriot SAM systems rolled across the borders into Ukraine.
Oliver Hardy said:
Digga said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Considering the size of the Russian military they should be stronger.
Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
The only thing that surprises me is that you are the least bit surprised.Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
This is Russian military tactics 101. Sadly, the majority of people recruited are poorly educated and with few other prospects. They all believe the state media. They have been educated to believe Russia is the main player. They do not question.
Certainly many who were younger and brighter fled Russia a good while back. We already knew that. Sadly though, what the corpses in the Ukrainian fields show, is that most conscripts are from poorer, satelite nations are areas, away from the better educated and well informed cities.
Digga said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Digga said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Considering the size of the Russian military they should be stronger.
Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
The only thing that surprises me is that you are the least bit surprised.Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
This is Russian military tactics 101. Sadly, the majority of people recruited are poorly educated and with few other prospects. They all believe the state media. They have been educated to believe Russia is the main player. They do not question.
Certainly many who were younger and brighter fled Russia a good while back. We already knew that. Sadly though, what the corpses in the Ukrainian fields show, is that most conscripts are from poorer, satelite nations are areas, away from the better educated and well informed cities.
JNW1 said:
The Senate have been recalled from recess to vote on this tomorrow and that should be no more than a rubber stamp (as should Biden's sign-off). So it wouldn't surprise me if some of the hardware is already on its way in anticipation of all the approvals being received - IMO it would be disappointing if that wasn't the case....
I read a lot of it is in warehouses in Poland and Germany, might have been on this thread I actually read that though 
J4CKO said:
Spare tyre said:
I wake up each morning and check this thread, always hoping that putin has “won” and can now retreat
1000s of young families destroyed daily for no gain, horrific
Yeah, I always check it and hope Putin has won a short vertical flight to tarmac land.1000s of young families destroyed daily for no gain, horrific
on closer inspection that the swimming pool was filled with very hungry Ukrainian alligators equipped with waterproof chainsaws and oxy-acetylene gear, but who also have a fair amount of time on their hands and like to make a slow, painstaking job of preparing lunch.
Big Russian offensive started. 20k troops attacking Chasiv Yar, near Bakhmut.
https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
TGCOTF-dewey said:
Big Russian offensive started. 20k troops attacking Chasiv Yar, near Bakhmut.
https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
Hopefully they have enough ammo locally in theatre that it can be fended off, it seems a bit of a coincidence that the ammunition tap is about to be turned on again. This is exactly the situation the EOL cluster artillery ammunition that is specifically excluded from the funding deal is ideal for, maybe they have some left over from the previous shipment.https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
Chasiv Yar has been getting quite a battering the past month or so, and unfortunately Russia is slowly advancing into the town.
It's a reasonably sized town so we will have to see if Ukraine hold out as long as possible like they did in Bakhmut and Avdiivka
https://t.me/combatfootageua/15224?single
It's a reasonably sized town so we will have to see if Ukraine hold out as long as possible like they did in Bakhmut and Avdiivka
https://t.me/combatfootageua/15224?single
Spare tyre said:
I wake up each morning and check this thread, always hoping that putin has “won” and can now retreat
1000s of young families destroyed daily for no gain, horrific
I feel similarly.1000s of young families destroyed daily for no gain, horrific
Abbott said:
I wake up each morning hoping that Russia has had its arse well and truly kicked and that the people have collectively opened their eyes and seen what lies they have been subjected to and have revolted against those in control.
Part of what NATO [ought[/i] to be considering, aside from the principal concerns for Ukraine's objectives, is what a victory over Russian actually means to NATO.In truth, this is not something that can be openly discussed without upsetting Putin and increasing Lavrov's nuclear threats to at least twice a week, but I suspect there is some consensus, behind closed doors, that complete destruction of Russian wealth and power is required. However, that achieved - and it is on track - the matter of how to 're-educate' the perennially uneducted and propagandised is a very long stretch. I'd argue it's almost as tough a job as we utterly failed to even address, let alone attempt in Afghanistan. I suppose, at least Russia was semi-civilised at some point in the 19th century.
Cheib said:
T
The US conspiracy theory loons are all over social media saying the politicians are all getting massive bribes to pass the legislation. The mindset of some sectors of US society is quite incredible…….
That probably HAS been happening but not by the organisations that the conspiracy theorists think!The US conspiracy theory loons are all over social media saying the politicians are all getting massive bribes to pass the legislation. The mindset of some sectors of US society is quite incredible…….
I imagine the likes of Lockheed have spare cash set aside to encourage their lawmakers to make the right decisions.
As others have said the majority of that $61B is going to be spent at companies that support American jobs.
I don't know if that part of the messaging has been made clear to the morons?
TGCOTF-dewey said:
Big Russian offensive started. 20k troops attacking Chasiv Yar, near Bakhmut.
https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
Isn't it Zelensky's town of origin? https://kyivindependent.com/military-over-20-000-r...
Just a couple of days ago Ukrainians said that they were aware of an attack there before May 9th.
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