State pension increase - good, bad, indifferent
Discussion
Millions of working age people die before even getting their state pensions. They have all payed in via NI. along with their employers contributions, and get nothing back. All governments have used the cash for other purposes and there is an unquantifiable return on that. So just saying a state pensions is unaffordable based on one individuals own NI contributions may be true, but it's a simplistic view. There are many additional elements which need to be added in to the calculations about affordability. And your not going to be told any of that.
Countdown said:
GT03ROB said:
crankedup5 said:
Some really interesting views posted.
I do recall one of my brothers paid into a private pension through his employer. The employer took the money out of the fund and then promptly went bust, he lost, along with his co-workers his entire pension contribution. This was years ago, I expect those situations could not happen now?
thats kind of what countdown is proposing the government do……….I do recall one of my brothers paid into a private pension through his employer. The employer took the money out of the fund and then promptly went bust, he lost, along with his co-workers his entire pension contribution. This was years ago, I expect those situations could not happen now?
Means testing is seen as reasonable targeting of resources, but mostly in a theoretical world not so much the real world. Aspects of claims made for it are illusory.
-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
turbobloke said:
Means testing is seen as reasonable targeting of resources, but mostly in a theoretical world not so much the real world. Aspects of claims made for it are illusory.
-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
Strange how its too difficult to means test the state pension but not child benefit. Why is that?-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
M1AGM said:
turbobloke said:
Means testing is seen as reasonable targeting of resources, but mostly in a theoretical world not so much the real world. Aspects of claims made for it are illusory.
-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
Strange how its too difficult to means test the state pension but not child benefit. Why is that?-Nuffield Foundation research noted a typical UK non-take-up of means tested benefits between 25% and 33% with HB (only) performing better
-Better off pensioners pay more income tax in any case so means testing in this way is already present
-Means testing is complex when done properly and therefore expensive of itself to administer, as well as a discouragement contributing to non-take-up
-It becomes a disincentive to save rather than an incentive (Nuffield again) by way of illustration, the Pension Credit was heralded by the gov't as a boost to saving (reduced effective tax rates)
-There would be more errors in one direction (non-receipt) compared to a straightforward d.o.b. entitlement
-The social contract in place across generations would be broken further following existing pension age changes (i.e. that's not about those changes already made)
I'll see if I can dig out the doc and get a url.
Or a decision reflecting on politics as the art of the possible without losing too many votes, Let's see what Labour manage.
Edited by turbobloke on Monday 20th March 19:04
Blue62 said:
Biggy Stardust said:
Up to 50 years of poor life choices can be a real bugger.
Indeed, what to do with those people who make poor life choices, it’s all their own fault so maybe euthanise them? It would mean a bit more for those of us who made good life choices. crankedup5 said:
I support the NHS doctors/nurses/ paramedic staff in their quest for a decent pay rise. The degradation of their pay over the past decade or more is shameful Tory policy which has now come to a head.
Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
Don't know about that. By the time "generation X" reach pension age, which will be about 90 by then, there will be so few of us and so much debt that a decent state pension will be a massive vote loser.Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
crankedup5 said:
I support the NHS doctors/nurses/ paramedic staff in their quest for a decent pay rise. The degradation of their pay over the past decade or more is shameful Tory policy which has now come to a head.
Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
Excellent. Where do you envisage the money coming from to pay for it all?Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
Biggy Stardust said:
crankedup5 said:
I support the NHS doctors/nurses/ paramedic staff in their quest for a decent pay rise. The degradation of their pay over the past decade or more is shameful Tory policy which has now come to a head.
Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
Excellent. Where do you envisage the money coming from to pay for it all?Back on topic, most people in work today will soon become pension claimants (hopefully). For this reason it is important to retain the triple lock on pensions that will ensure the value of the pension payment is kept.
I was 66 in February, and apparently (not sure how) - I have 13 years of NI contributions (lived in NZ since 2000).
Just waiting for the 10% increase, then I will claim (about 70 pounds a week) - which I have to pass over to the government here as part ex for an NZ state pension (which is only based on length of time in NZ).
This 70 quid is then frozen for ever, no annual increases.
For me personally, the increase is irrelevant. At least the UK government will have to pay a bit more of what they "owe" me.
caziques said:
I was 66 in February, and apparently (not sure how) - I have 13 years of NI contributions (lived in NZ since 2000).
Just waiting for the 10% increase, then I will claim (about 70 pounds a week) - which I have to pass over to the government here as part ex for an NZ state pension (which is only based on length of time in NZ).
This 70 quid is then frozen for ever, no annual increases.
For me personally, the increase is irrelevant. At least the UK government will have to pay a bit more of what they "owe" me.
Unless you return to the UK, AIUI.Just waiting for the 10% increase, then I will claim (about 70 pounds a week) - which I have to pass over to the government here as part ex for an NZ state pension (which is only based on length of time in NZ).
This 70 quid is then frozen for ever, no annual increases.
For me personally, the increase is irrelevant. At least the UK government will have to pay a bit more of what they "owe" me.
Biggy Stardust said:
Blue62 said:
Biggy Stardust said:
Up to 50 years of poor life choices can be a real bugger.
Indeed, what to do with those people who make poor life choices, it’s all their own fault so maybe euthanise them? It would mean a bit more for those of us who made good life choices. The consequences of their actions is the bins get emptied, food gets on our plates and we/our relatives get care.
Not everyone can be a managing director and looking down on the ‘poor people’ who are in a manual job all their lives is pretty sad.
I’ve just been through the effects of a dec’d person.
Sat in social housing paying not a penny. Lovely benefits and state pension income
Judging by his bank statements, did nothing but blow the lot daily in Wetherspoons and the bookies
I’m struggling to see how the state didn’t keep him in quite a good carry on to be honest. The outgoing sums to the bookies made me wince.
One problem is we have a culture that no matter how you feck around in your life, the state bails you out. Again a staggering amount of pensioners have done nothing at all of any worth to even deserve a pension, it’s been decades of creaming the benefits system. All that happened was they became 67.
Sat in social housing paying not a penny. Lovely benefits and state pension income
Judging by his bank statements, did nothing but blow the lot daily in Wetherspoons and the bookies
I’m struggling to see how the state didn’t keep him in quite a good carry on to be honest. The outgoing sums to the bookies made me wince.
One problem is we have a culture that no matter how you feck around in your life, the state bails you out. Again a staggering amount of pensioners have done nothing at all of any worth to even deserve a pension, it’s been decades of creaming the benefits system. All that happened was they became 67.
M1AGM said:
Strange how its too difficult to means test the state pension but not child benefit. Why is that?
Presumably because when claiming child benefit it’s quite easy to work on a salary only.Once someone is at pension age it gets very difficult to know someone’s income as there are many ways to fund retirement not straightforward via PAYE.
Example : Someone with £2m in an ISA would be hidden where as someone with a £1m pension would be easy pray as tax likely to be paid.
So not really a way to means test ………if they do….. you will see less investing in their pension……
Drawweight said:
Is it a bad choice to be a binman or a farm worker or maybe a care home worker?
The consequences of their actions is the bins get emptied, food gets on our plates and we/our relatives get care.
Not everyone can be a managing director and looking down on the ‘poor people’ who are in a manual job all their lives is pretty sad.
They work, they can either save a few quid towards their old age or do without. It is quite literally their choice whether to go for a beer today or put the money towards their old age.The consequences of their actions is the bins get emptied, food gets on our plates and we/our relatives get care.
Not everyone can be a managing director and looking down on the ‘poor people’ who are in a manual job all their lives is pretty sad.
I was actually talking about a life not bothering to work, having children with no way of supporting them, that sort of thing. As you well know.
Edited by Biggy Stardust on Monday 20th March 21:49
Biggy Stardust said:
Drawweight said:
Is it a bad choice to be a binman or a farm worker or maybe a care home worker?
The consequences of their actions is the bins get emptied, food gets on our plates and we/our relatives get care.
Not everyone can be a managing director and looking down on the ‘poor people’ who are in a manual job all their lives is pretty sad.
They work, they can either save a few quid towards their old age or do without. It is quite literally their choice whether to go for a beer today or put the money towards their old age.The consequences of their actions is the bins get emptied, food gets on our plates and we/our relatives get care.
Not everyone can be a managing director and looking down on the ‘poor people’ who are in a manual job all their lives is pretty sad.
I was actually talking about a life not bothering to work, having children with no way of supporting them, that sort of thing. As you well know.
Edited by Biggy Stardust on Monday 20th March 21:49
My concern about means testing is it's one more disincentive to work: I can easily envisage someone scraping by on an average wage, sticking a bit into a pension, paying off the mortgage etc then come retirement being little better off than those you're referring to. At least as things stand currently everyone gets some of pension, those that have worked all their days get a bigger one, and those that planned for their retirement have additional income.
Biggy Stardust said:
They work, they can either save a few quid towards their old age or do without. It is quite literally their choice whether to go for a beer today or put the money towards their old age.
I was actually talking about a life not bothering to work, having children with no way of supporting them, that sort of thing. As you well know.
You appear to be pretty sure of your ground, so what would you do with all these people not bothering to work and having children they can't afford? Do we invest in educating their offspring so that we have a chance to break the cycle, or let them all starve to death? I was actually talking about a life not bothering to work, having children with no way of supporting them, that sort of thing. As you well know.
Edited by Biggy Stardust on Monday 20th March 21:49
I do wonder about the numbers though, are they a biggest drain on our limited resources?
turbobloke said:
Not with the hypothecation around NI which would provide the means to invest aside from such distractions. It's basically gov't dishonesty, not pensioner greed or excessively generous treatment at all.
You can use exactly the same argument about any govt delivered services.NI has simply been another route to harvest tax for donkeys'. And we have been spending more than we take in, in taxes, for a similar amount of time (give or take a few brief periods).
Yet we all want better services and not to have to pay more for them (or, more typically, we believe someone else should pay for them).
Government dishonesty? Sure. What drives government dishonesty? A desire to get elected and get into power. So they say what we "all" want to hear.
And so it goes on.
The triple lock is a joke. An expensive one. But it is very far from the only joke amongst UK govt expenditure.
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