Met police institutionally racist, misogynistic, homophobic

[bmwmike]

ChocolateFrog said:

s1962a said:

In my company it just takes one incident and you are out on your ear. There is a zero tolerance approach to any homophobic, sexist, racist behaviour. It should be the same in the police. One incident and you are out.

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I know this is PH NP&E but its quite interesting seeing how many folks are willing to defend the met behaviour, or their own behaviour on the basis that its mostly white people where they work, or that someone else is to blame because HR / Finance / tea ladies were outsourced so obviously it must be that which causes good coppers to put bacon in someones shoes, or admit that rape "may as well be legal" because the evidence collection is so poor, or forcibly cutting someones hair because its a bit of a laff init.

FWIW I work in a large org and the line is very clear - zero tolerance to any kind of abuse, and we have to sit through an hour or so of training every year to make sure everyone knows what is expected of them. Working globally you have to be very careful about how even very vanilla local stuff comes across.

[272BHP]

s1962a said:

In my company it just takes one incident and you are out on your ear. There is a zero tolerance approach to any homophobic, sexist, racist behaviour. It should be the same in the police. One incident and you are out.

Nonsense.

I have worked in places that includes people from all walks of lives and disabilities. Some of the things I hear and see could be construed to be offensive but are you going to fire every person let's say on the spectrum who offends someone through basic lack of filter, social confusion or misunderstanding?

Minor incidents can be dealt with by a chat/training and sometimes just an apology.

[smn159]

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

[turbobloke]

smn159 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

Two thoughts arise, giving two questions if I may, given your experience and expertise in these matters within a large corporate.

If ChocolateFrog is a recipient not a sender, on what basis would they be dismissed? Specific question.

Also, the notion of a WhatsApp group exchange suggests private communication rather than work-based communication. Assuming so, and if a sender can be shown to have messaged others with unacceptable content as you described it above, how far does corporate reach go when claiming the right to exert corporate discipline on employees over what happens in their own time? General question.

[Electro1980]

LukeBrown66 said:

Having been a member of a police family for decades I feel quite strongly about how policing has been affected.

I do feel the issues in the Met are perhaps stronger than elsewhere.

But everything police do is based on data these days, and that is why so much stuff is done in terms of stop and search. For those involved, horrible, but there is data behind it usually. I am not saying there is not racism in the Met or any police, there might well be.

But it might also come from experience, knowledge. The media are not going to privvy to things the police know, so when people complain the police have little scope for cause or they are giving away what they know.

However, I will acknowledge a few things, I often go for walks late at night to relax, and I have never been stopped by the police in 15 or so years of doing this, I would imagine if I was black this might not be the case, so you can see where the inherent distrust comes from.

This isn’t just about interactions with members of the public and who is stopped though. This is about how officers are treating each other.

[Electro1980]

turbobloke said:

smn159 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

Two thoughts arise, giving two questions if I may, given your experience and expertise in these matters within a large corporate.

If ChocolateFrog is a recipient not a sender, on what basis would they be dismissed? Specific question.

Also, the notion of a WhatsApp group exchange suggests private communication rather than work-based communication. Assuming so, and if a sender can be shown to have messaged others with unacceptable content as you described it above, how far does corporate reach go when claiming the right to exert corporate discipline on employees over what happens in their own time? General question.

The recipient is unlikely to face any consequences beyond possibly a stern talking too, unless they are in a profession where they are expected to have a higher level of responsibility. A book keeper at a dog food factory, probably not going to be an issue. A teacher, doctor or someone else with a position of trust and authority, like, say, a police officer, will be held to a higher standard.

If you are working with someone then any communication could potentially result in a disciplinary action regardless of your personal relationship with them or the context of the messages.

[turbobloke]

Electro1980 said:

turbobloke said:

smn159 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

Two thoughts arise, giving two questions if I may, given your experience and expertise in these matters within a large corporate.

If ChocolateFrog is a recipient not a sender, on what basis would they be dismissed? Specific question.

Also, the notion of a WhatsApp group exchange suggests private communication rather than work-based communication. Assuming so, and if a sender can be shown to have messaged others with unacceptable content as you described it above, how far does corporate reach go when claiming the right to exert corporate discipline on employees over what happens in their own time? General question.

The recipient is unlikely to face any consequences beyond possibly a stern talking too, unless they are in a profession where they are expected to have a higher level of responsibility. A book keeper at a dog food factory, probably not going to be an issue. A teacher, doctor or someone else with a position of trust and authority, like, say, a police officer, will be held to a higher standard.

If you are working with someone then any communication could potentially result in a disciplinary action regardless of your personal relationship with them or the context of the messages.

OK, thanks for chipping in, and from the final sentence above another question comes to mind if HR folks don't mind. Would details of the context need to be explicit in the contract of employment 'terms and conditions' e.g. these often cite specific behaviours classed as gross misconduct warranting instant dismissal, including types of serious misconduct outside the workplace which e.g. bring an employer into disrepute. I suspect the content alone of such WhatsApp messages may be sufficient, if they were made public or brought to HR attention, is that correct?

[Earthdweller]

Electro1980 said:

turbobloke said:

smn159 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

Two thoughts arise, giving two questions if I may, given your experience and expertise in these matters within a large corporate.

If ChocolateFrog is a recipient not a sender, on what basis would they be dismissed? Specific question.

Also, the notion of a WhatsApp group exchange suggests private communication rather than work-based communication. Assuming so, and if a sender can be shown to have messaged others with unacceptable content as you described it above, how far does corporate reach go when claiming the right to exert corporate discipline on employees over what happens in their own time? General question.

The recipient is unlikely to face any consequences beyond possibly a stern talking too, unless they are in a profession where they are expected to have a higher level of responsibility. A book keeper at a dog food factory, probably not going to be an issue. A teacher, doctor or someone else with a position of trust and authority, like, say, a police officer, will be held to a higher standard.

If you are working with someone then any communication could potentially result in a disciplinary action regardless of your personal relationship with them or the context of the messages.

A police officer will be sacked, likely charged with a criminal offence, potentially imprisoned

[s1962a]

272BHP said:

s1962a said:

In my company it just takes one incident and you are out on your ear. There is a zero tolerance approach to any homophobic, sexist, racist behaviour. It should be the same in the police. One incident and you are out.

Nonsense.

I have worked in places that includes people from all walks of lives and disabilities. Some of the things I hear and see could be construed to be offensive but are you going to fire every person let's say on the spectrum who offends someone through basic lack of filter, social confusion or misunderstanding?

Minor incidents can be dealt with by a chat/training and sometimes just an apology.

Not the kind of company I work for - if it's offensive, you are out. Met Police should be the same - if someone on the "spectrum" is doing something offensive because of a lack of a filter, confusion, or a misunderstanding, they probably shouldn't be on the force.

[turbobloke]

Earthdweller said:

Electro1980 said:

turbobloke said:

smn159 said:

ChocolateFrog said:

That's fine (and right) but it's where you draw the line.

Can a guy person make a gay joke or is it only homophobic when a straight person makes the same joke.

Or are jokes OK because you can make a joke about race without being racist.

My work is over 90% white male yet the 2 people at work I speak to most are a Sikh man and a gay woman.

I'm sure if HR got hold of our private WhatsApp group we'd all be sacked immediately if it was held up to the same scrutiny as some of the message groups are from the police/students etc.

I investigate grievances from time to time within a large corporate. If someone raises a formal grievance because they feel that they've been subjected racism, misogyny or homophobia it's taken extremely seriously and both parties are interviewed, along with any witnesses and a judgement is made. The impact on the 'victim' as well as previous patterns of behaviour determine whether, if the claim is upheld, the sanction is a reprimand or dismissal.

If you're in a WhatsApp group sharing racist. / misogynistic or homophobic content and someone in the group complains then you would almost certainly be dismissed from any large corporate.

Maybe you should reconsider your attitudes?

Two thoughts arise, giving two questions if I may, given your experience and expertise in these matters within a large corporate.

If ChocolateFrog is a recipient not a sender, on what basis would they be dismissed? Specific question.

Also, the notion of a WhatsApp group exchange suggests private communication rather than work-based communication. Assuming so, and if a sender can be shown to have messaged others with unacceptable content as you described it above, how far does corporate reach go when claiming the right to exert corporate discipline on employees over what happens in their own time? General question.

The recipient is unlikely to face any consequences beyond possibly a stern talking too, unless they are in a profession where they are expected to have a higher level of responsibility. A book keeper at a dog food factory, probably not going to be an issue. A teacher, doctor or someone else with a position of trust and authority, like, say, a police officer, will be held to a higher standard.

If you are working with someone then any communication could potentially result in a disciplinary action regardless of your personal relationship with them or the context of the messages.

A police officer will be sacked, likely charged with a criminal offence, potentially imprisoned

If all members of a WhatsApp group were involved and all are police officers then presumably the same outcome (dismissal, charges, potential imprisonment) would fall on the entire group, including those who hadn't ever sent an offensive message? One basis among others being that the matter should have been reported immediately otherwise it's being tolerated?

Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 22 March 12:50

[Earthdweller]

turbobloke said:

f all members of a WhatsApp group were involved and all are police officers then presumably the same outcome (dismissal, charges, potential imprisonment) would fall on the entire group, including those who hadn't ever sent a message? One basis among others being that the matter should have been reported immediately?

Yes,

if you fail to report receiving a message which breaches professional standards then you commit an offence

Hence why there are a number of cases involving WhatsApp messages as most serving officers are terrified of receiving a message, even from a non police officer and if they do will act on it immediately

As an example we saw the high profile case of the Supt who received an offensive/criminal content WhatsApp message from a family member and didn’t report it and was subsequently charged, convicted and sacked .. although an “independent” appeals panel said she shouldn’t have been sacked

[Biggy Stardust]

Earthdweller said:

A police officer will be sacked, likely charged with a criminal offence, potentially imprisoned

With respect, I don't support that. There have been many instances where police offenders have been given "words of advice" where IMO a somewhat stronger sanction should have been applied.

[turbobloke]

Earthdweller said:

turbobloke said:

f all members of a WhatsApp group were involved and all are police officers then presumably the same outcome (dismissal, charges, potential imprisonment) would fall on the entire group, including those who hadn't ever sent a message? One basis among others being that the matter should have been reported immediately?

Yes,

if you fail to report receiving a message which breaches professional standards then you commit an offence

Hence why there are a number of cases involving WhatsApp messages as most serving officers are terrified of receiving a message, even from a non police officer and if they do will act on it immediately

As an example we saw the high profile case of the Supt who received an offensive/criminal content WhatsApp message from a family member and didn’t report it and was subsequently charged, convicted and sacked .. although an “independent” appeals panel said she shouldn’t have been sacked

Thanks for clarifying, and not wanting to turn the thread into a BiB Q/A lockout (I'll stop asking) what if any action would be taken against say a family member or friend responsible for sending the reportable message? Thanks again, over and out.

[Earthdweller]

turbobloke said:

Thanks for clarifying, and not wanting to turn the thread into a BiB Q/A lockout (I'll stop asking) what if any action would be taken against say a family member or friend responsible for sending the reportable message? Thanks again, over and out.

Fair enough

I’ll leave it at this ..

It doesn’t matter who you receive it from, if it comes to light you possessed it and didn’t report it then you are at the mercy of discipline regs and PSD and potentially criminal charges (obv depending on the content)

[turbobloke]

Earthdweller said:

turbobloke said:

Thanks for clarifying, and not wanting to turn the thread into a BiB Q/A lockout (I'll stop asking) what if any action would be taken against say a family member or friend responsible for sending the reportable message? Thanks again, over and out.

Fair enough

I’ll leave it at this ..

It doesn’t matter who you receive it from, if it comes to light you possessed it and didn’t report it then you are at the mercy of discipline regs and PSD and potentially criminal charges (obv depending on the content)

Thanks, but with respect that didn't answer the question about potential consequences for the sender (family/friend, not an officer) and by my own rule I can't ask again.

[oyster]

Ivan stewart said:

After they have finished will the police still be strong enough to deal with real criminals and horrible people or will we need Robots !!

I hope you're not suggesting homophobes, racists and misogynists are better at fighting crime?
I won't proceed with a follow-up, as I may simply have misunderstood you?

[Earthdweller]

Biggy Stardust said:

With respect, I don't support that. There have been many instances where police offenders have been given "words of advice" where IMO a somewhat stronger sanction should have been applied.

Each case is dealt with on the facts of the case, and there are degrees from banter through to content which is criminal and illegal to possess

I’ll just leave it at this .. it is taken seriously, very seriously. Like you I don’t know the circumstances of individual cases nor the evidence heard by the Disciplinary panel. It may be “words of advice” was appropriate in those cases

[Biggy Stardust]

Earthdweller said:

Each case is dealt with on the facts of the case, and there are degrees from banter through to content which is criminal and illegal to possess

I’ll just leave it at this .. it is taken seriously, very seriously. Like you I don’t know the circumstances of individual cases nor the evidence heard by the Disciplinary panel. It may be “words of advice” was appropriate in those cases

I'll do as TB and not push the point further.

[Earthdweller]

turbobloke said:

Thanks, but with respect that didn't answer the question about potential consequences for the sender (family/friend, not an officer) and by my own rule I can't ask again.

My apologies I miss understood.

No they aren’t subject to police discipline regs but they are subject to criminal law and if the content breaches that then action will likely be taken against them

Over and out this end now

[Countdown]

272BHP said:

s1962a said:

In my company it just takes one incident and you are out on your ear. There is a zero tolerance approach to any homophobic, sexist, racist behaviour. It should be the same in the police. One incident and you are out.

Nonsense.

I have worked in places that includes people from all walks of lives and disabilities. Some of the things I hear and see could be construed to be offensive but are you going to fire every person let's say on the spectrum who offends someone through basic lack of filter, social confusion or misunderstanding?

Minor incidents can be dealt with by a chat/training and sometimes just an apology.

You've answered your own question.

Most places I've worked have some kind of Code of Conduct/Staff Ethics/Dignity at Work Policy which everybody is obliged to read when they start. So everybody should know what IS and ISN'T "acceptable". If you breach the Policy then the investigation process and the sanctions are already set out.

However if Management don't apply the Policies fairly and consistently then they are going to be ignored.