Met police institutionally racist, misogynistic, homophobic
Discussion
I think everyone agrees the Met is an utter disaster on all fronts. Question is, if you disband it what replaces it?
Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
MrBogSmith said:
b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: Six former Met officers given suspended prison sentences.
Met Police: Ex-officers sentenced over racist WhatsApp posts
I question whether private WhatsApp messages between bigoted idiots should be a crime. Met Police: Ex-officers sentenced over racist WhatsApp posts
Tom8 said:
I think everyone agrees the Met is an utter disaster on all fronts. Question is, if you disband it what replaces it?
Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
Yes, privately run security runs much better, doesn't it...? I'd argue that they are manageable under public stewardship, just badly managed, sometimes BECAUSE of the safety net provided by the public funding...but that's not the same as being unmanageable Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
Tom8 said:
I think everyone agrees the Met is an utter disaster on all fronts. Question is, if you disband it what replaces it?
Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
A pan-London force remains to do the social work and mental health crisis management that should be done by other agencies, but hive off the 'sexy' bits to create a national police force along the lines of the FBI to deal with terrorism, cyber, national and international crime; our 19th century policing is not able to deal with how crime works. The NCA is not adequately funded to do this, if it were funded pro-rata as the FBI is the budget it would receive would be 3-4 times larger.Firstly the brand and the name need to be binned (a bit like in Northern Ireland with the RUC) and kill off the history. But then what?
Could neighbouring counties extend their borders into London a bit like a dart board with city police (who don't seem to have the same met issues??) as the bullseye, then Kent, Surrey, Hampshire etc reaching inwards?
Or could you police on say tube zones, so circles around the city spreading outwards.
Or cut London into 4 quadrants NSEW and set up a force for each?
The Met must be killed off, it can't continue any longer as it is beyond repair. Like the NHS, public behemoths never work as they are unmanageable.
Biggy Stardust said:
You're absolutely right- police & ex-police should be entitled to racist or misogynist hate speech without laws getting in the way; I see nothing whatsoever wrong with it.
In cases like this we can't comment fully as the police have not released the content.In simpler times everyone would have had faith in the system that the content was horrific and warranted a charge but these days I am not so sure.
272BHP said:
Biggy Stardust said:
You're absolutely right- police & ex-police should be entitled to racist or misogynist hate speech without laws getting in the way; I see nothing whatsoever wrong with it.
In cases like this we can't comment fully as the police have not released the content.In simpler times everyone would have had faith in the system that the content was horrific and warranted a charge but these days I am not so sure.
ZedLeg said:
What's the acceptable level of racism?
To some people just voting for Brexit is racist. For others using outdated terms like 'coloured' is racist.
Some people believe refusing to kneel for BLM is proof of racism as well.
It's more complicated than it should be that's for sure.
272BHP said:
ZedLeg said:
What's the acceptable level of racism?
To some people just voting for Brexit is racist. For others using outdated terms like 'coloured' is racist.
Some people believe refusing to kneel for BLM is proof of racism as well.
It's more complicated than it should be that's for sure.
272BHP said:
Biggy Stardust said:
You're absolutely right- police & ex-police should be entitled to racist or misogynist hate speech without laws getting in the way; I see nothing whatsoever wrong with it.
In cases like this we can't comment fully as the police have not released the content.In simpler times everyone would have had faith in the system that the content was horrific and warranted a charge but these days I am not so sure.
The six men were sentenced as follows:
Michael Chadwell, 63, from Liss, Hampshire - 10 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 100 hours' unpaid work
Peter Booth, 66, from Llandeilo, Carmarthenshire - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months and 140 hours' unpaid work
Anthony Elsom, 67, from Bournemouth - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 40 hours' unpaid work
Trevor Lewton, 65, from Swansea - six weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 65 hours' unpaid work.
Alan Hall, 65, from Stowmarket, Suffolk - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 140 hours' unpaid work.
Robert Lewis, 62, from Camberley, Surrey - 14 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, with 200 hours' unpaid work. He was also fined £500 for possessing two friction batons in a private place, contrary to section 141(1A) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988
That's simple enough for me.
ETA- why are you defending the actions of rather scummy individuals?
Edited by Biggy Stardust on Friday 8th December 12:49
272BHP said:
ZedLeg said:
What's the acceptable level of racism?
To some people just voting for Brexit is racist. For others using outdated terms like 'coloured' is racist.
Some people believe refusing to kneel for BLM is proof of racism as well.
It's more complicated than it should be that's for sure.
Biggy Stardust said:
272BHP said:
Biggy Stardust said:
You're absolutely right- police & ex-police should be entitled to racist or misogynist hate speech without laws getting in the way; I see nothing whatsoever wrong with it.
In cases like this we can't comment fully as the police have not released the content.In simpler times everyone would have had faith in the system that the content was horrific and warranted a charge but these days I am not so sure.
The six men were sentenced as follows:
Michael Chadwell, 63, from Liss, Hampshire - 10 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 100 hours' unpaid work
Peter Booth, 66, from Llandeilo, Carmarthenshire - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months and 140 hours' unpaid work
Anthony Elsom, 67, from Bournemouth - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 40 hours' unpaid work
Trevor Lewton, 65, from Swansea - six weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 65 hours' unpaid work.
Alan Hall, 65, from Stowmarket, Suffolk - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 140 hours' unpaid work.
Robert Lewis, 62, from Camberley, Surrey - 14 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, with 200 hours' unpaid work. He was also fined £500 for possessing two friction batons in a private place, contrary to section 141(1A) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988
That's simple enough for me.
ETA- why are you defending the actions of rather scummy individuals?
Edited by Biggy Stardust on Friday 8th December 12:49
Edited by Bigends on Friday 8th December 13:02
hidetheelephants said:
A pan-London force remains to do the social work and mental health crisis management that should be done by other agencies, but hive off the 'sexy' bits to create a national police force along the lines of the FBI to deal with terrorism, cyber, national and international crime; our 19th century policing is not able to deal with how crime works. The NCA is not adequately funded to do this, if it were funded pro-rata as the FBI is the budget it would receive would be 3-4 times larger.
The Met no longer deal with mental health,or crisis es, or welfare related stuff, or people who abscond or walk out of institutions etc. Its all stopped and been passed to other parties. Only in exceptional circs will they attend - normally when someone is hanging off a bridge and threatening to cause issues with rush hour traffic.Biggy Stardust said:
Bearing in mind that 6 people were sentenced by a judge we have to at least consider the possibility that the content "warranted a charge".
The six men were sentenced as follows:
Michael Chadwell, 63, from Liss, Hampshire - 10 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 100 hours' unpaid work
Peter Booth, 66, from Llandeilo, Carmarthenshire - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months and 140 hours' unpaid work
Anthony Elsom, 67, from Bournemouth - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 40 hours' unpaid work
Trevor Lewton, 65, from Swansea - six weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 65 hours' unpaid work.
Alan Hall, 65, from Stowmarket, Suffolk - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 140 hours' unpaid work.
Robert Lewis, 62, from Camberley, Surrey - 14 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, with 200 hours' unpaid work. He was also fined £500 for possessing two friction batons in a private place, contrary to section 141(1A) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988
That's simple enough for me.
ETA- why are you defending the actions of rather scummy individuals?
Who is defending them? The six men were sentenced as follows:
Michael Chadwell, 63, from Liss, Hampshire - 10 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 100 hours' unpaid work
Peter Booth, 66, from Llandeilo, Carmarthenshire - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months and 140 hours' unpaid work
Anthony Elsom, 67, from Bournemouth - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 40 hours' unpaid work
Trevor Lewton, 65, from Swansea - six weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 65 hours' unpaid work.
Alan Hall, 65, from Stowmarket, Suffolk - eight weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, and 140 hours' unpaid work.
Robert Lewis, 62, from Camberley, Surrey - 14 weeks' imprisonment, suspended for 12 months, with 200 hours' unpaid work. He was also fined £500 for possessing two friction batons in a private place, contrary to section 141(1A) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988
That's simple enough for me.
ETA- why are you defending the actions of rather scummy individuals?
I just want to know more facts as this case has wider implications in terms of privacy and free speech.
272BHP said:
Who is defending them?
I just want to know more facts as this case has wider implications in terms of privacy and free speech.
Fact- a bunch of ex police shared racist/misogynistic/homophobic messages. The court established this as fact.I just want to know more facts as this case has wider implications in terms of privacy and free speech.
Fact- it was sufficiently serious as to elicit prison sentences (suspended) & community service. This is a matter of public record.
I believe massively in free speech subject to the minimum of necessary restrictions for the benefit of all. Their speech was found to have exceeded the legal level of acceptability & they were penalised accordingly. The fact that they were only breaking the law "amongst themselves" isn't a great defence IMO & in the opinion of the court.
I'm unsure what further facts you would need to know.
I doubt people have much to worry about unless they're sharing racist filth with your friends.
A little more detail and an example here though.
Ex-Met officer guilty of sending racist message
I'm going to predict within a page or two we'll get "Is that all he said?".
A little more detail and an example here though.
Ex-Met officer guilty of sending racist message
I'm going to predict within a page or two we'll get "Is that all he said?".
The people involved aren’t relevant, it’s the interpretation and application of the law.
These laws pre-date social media and arguably aren’t suitable for modern communications. From what I can see the courts are generally reluctant to convict people who send things like this or equal a nature over WhatsApp. For example also involving police officers (where the judge was quite scathing over the prosecution): https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-ne...
From a practical point of view two people can sit in a house and day all sorts of terrible things (like the ex-officers did). That’s perfectly lawful. However, if they commit them to WhatsApp suddenly it becomes a crime.
Are we wanting to criminalise this type of expression or not? Where do ‘dark humour’ and jokes finish and ‘grossly offensive’ start?
From my point of view I’m extremely reluctant to see communication restricted and criminalised. That’s obviously different from an employer’s internal misconduct / disciplinary thresholds. Naturally I’d expect people to lose their jobs for such behaviour.
Interestingly enough looking at the CPS guidance when the messages involve royals / politicians it requires a higher level of CPS scrutiny, so perhaps that was the variable.
These laws pre-date social media and arguably aren’t suitable for modern communications. From what I can see the courts are generally reluctant to convict people who send things like this or equal a nature over WhatsApp. For example also involving police officers (where the judge was quite scathing over the prosecution): https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/news/grimsby-ne...
From a practical point of view two people can sit in a house and day all sorts of terrible things (like the ex-officers did). That’s perfectly lawful. However, if they commit them to WhatsApp suddenly it becomes a crime.
Are we wanting to criminalise this type of expression or not? Where do ‘dark humour’ and jokes finish and ‘grossly offensive’ start?
From my point of view I’m extremely reluctant to see communication restricted and criminalised. That’s obviously different from an employer’s internal misconduct / disciplinary thresholds. Naturally I’d expect people to lose their jobs for such behaviour.
Interestingly enough looking at the CPS guidance when the messages involve royals / politicians it requires a higher level of CPS scrutiny, so perhaps that was the variable.
Random_Person said:
hidetheelephants said:
A pan-London force remains to do the social work and mental health crisis management that should be done by other agencies, but hive off the 'sexy' bits to create a national police force along the lines of the FBI to deal with terrorism, cyber, national and international crime; our 19th century policing is not able to deal with how crime works. The NCA is not adequately funded to do this, if it were funded pro-rata as the FBI is the budget it would receive would be 3-4 times larger.
The Met no longer deal with mental health,or crisis es, or welfare related stuff, or people who abscond or walk out of institutions etc. Its all stopped and been passed to other parties. Only in exceptional circs will they attend - normally when someone is hanging off a bridge and threatening to cause issues with rush hour traffic.
Aside from my frivolous dismissal of the mundane but necessary work of the uniformed copper, can I take that as an endorsement of my "NCA but funded better" idea? 
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