World Athletics transgender women ban

Sunday 17th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

You didn’t use the term biological man though did you, which part of my opinion do you disagree with?

Because it was obvious. And the fact you had to ask for clarification just shows how screwed up it is. In sport 'trans' do not really fit in. They are neither in one camp or the other.

15,514 posts

130 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

carlo996 said:

chrispmartha said:

You didn’t use the term biological man though did you, which part of my opinion do you disagree with?

Because it was obvious. And the fact you had to ask for clarification just shows how screwed up it is. In sport 'trans' do not really fit in. They are neither in one camp or the other.

Which part of my opinion do you disagree with?

8.4L 154

5,530 posts

254 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

Ive said im fine with governing bodies deciding its not fair for trans people to compete in certain categories of sport, which part of that do you disagree with?

Are you still happy if that decision is politically driven rather than evidenced, we know Carlo996 is fine with it but how about you.

carlo996 said:

I don't need to look at research, as it's pretty simple.

carlo996

5,767 posts

22 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

Which part of my opinion do you disagree with?

That trans athletes are relevant in sport based on the traditional categories.

15,514 posts

130 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

8.4L 154 said:

chrispmartha said:

Ive said im fine with governing bodies deciding its not fair for trans people to compete in certain categories of sport, which part of that do you disagree with?

Are you still happy if that decision is politically driven rather than evidenced, we know Carlo996 is fine with it but how about you.

carlo996 said:

I don't need to look at research, as it's pretty simple.

On your first point, no not particularly, but I still think it should be up to the governing bodies to decide, I can’t see who else could make those decisions, unfortunately a lot of it is political. My Sport Rugby League has decided to ban trans athletes but I don’t particularly think they have done enough research into it for an outright ban but that’s what they've come up with despite their being so few trans rugby league players, however I’m not sure who else’s decision it should be?

I think team sports are an entirely different matter to individual sports aswell.

It’s not as simple as some people want it to be.

15,514 posts

130 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

carlo996 said:

chrispmartha said:

Which part of my opinion do you disagree with?

That trans athletes are relevant in sport based on the traditional categories.

That wasn’t my opinion.

carlo996

5,767 posts

22 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

That wasn’t my opinion.

Enjoy howling at the moon.

15,514 posts

130 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

carlo996 said:

chrispmartha said:

That wasn’t my opinion.

Enjoy howling at the moon.

Your inability to actually engage is very telling.

Who in your opinion should decide on these matters if it isn’t the governing bodies of the sport?

Biggy Stardust

6,936 posts

45 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

But the word CIS literally does exist as does trans.

Trans gender people exist, they have done for thousands of years.

Do you have any evidence of sex-change operations or hormone therapy a thousand years ago? Or even a hundred years ago? Anywhere in the world will do.

If you have no such evidence then I will call bulls

t on your claims.

15,514 posts

130 months

Sunday 17th December 2023

Biggy Stardust said:

chrispmartha said:

But the word CIS literally does exist as does trans.

Trans gender people exist, they have done for thousands of years.

Do you have any evidence of sex-change operations or hormone therapy a thousand years ago? Or even a hundred years ago? Anywhere in the world will do.

If you have no such evidence then I will call bulls

t on your claims.

You don’t need to have a sex change operation or hormone therapy to be trans gender.

Anyway just google it, this was the first entry on my google search.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/transgender-gender-d...

otolith

56,253 posts

205 months

Monday 18th December 2023

I think the whole conversation is much wider and more difficult than the specific problems of domains like sport and medicine where gender is irrelevant - I was a bit surprised by the reaction to my suggestion that they just take themselves out of it by focusing specifically on sex, which perhaps illustrates how much the debate is about politics and emotion rather than practicality. To be honest I expected more of a negative reaction from the other side of the debate, because I suspect the effect of creating a “female” category alongside the “women’s” category would probably result in many or even most cisgender women choosing to compete in the former category rather than the latter.

Randy Winkman

16,208 posts

190 months

Monday 18th December 2023

chrispmartha said:

Biggy Stardust said:

chrispmartha said:

But the word CIS literally does exist as does trans.

Trans gender people exist, they have done for thousands of years.

Do you have any evidence of sex-change operations or hormone therapy a thousand years ago? Or even a hundred years ago? Anywhere in the world will do.

If you have no such evidence then I will call bulls

t on your claims.

You don’t need to have a sex change operation or hormone therapy to be trans gender.

Anyway just google it, this was the first entry on my google search.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/transgender-gender-d...

Exactly. Biggy Stardust's post showed ignorance of the whole issue.

andyA700

2,745 posts

38 months

Monday 18th December 2023

Randy Winkman said:

andyA700 said:

Randy Winkman said:

8.4L 154 said:

SlimJim16v said:

MrsMiggins said:

Doesn't work in practice.

Because they lose the advantage they have competing against women.

Go on then name 6 trans swimmers who would compete in the same event. You need more than Lia Thomas for a swim meet and last I heard she wasn't swimming any more. Should be easy as every trans person competing in sport seems to get reported in the Daily mail, even if its a local club cycling event in Chicago where the other three competitors were just thankful they had someone to race against and came out strongly in support of the trans competitors

I agree. The DM wants us to think there's a trans invasion of sport when their isn't.

Each of those is in it's own way, very important and I'm not saying I think that any of them are fair. But for every one of those I'd hazard a guess that there are at least 100 stories that don't involve transgender women.

Out of interest, how did you make such a list?

How did I compile this list, maybe why?
I used to compete at a couple of sports at county level, sometimes against internationals. I know the difference between men and women, their capabilities in sports, so back in 2018 when I first saw an article about Rachel McKinnon winning a Masters World title at track cycling, I thought it had to be a windup, but it wasn't, so I contacted British Cycling to ask them if they thought this was OK. At that time, they thought I was being out of order, thankfully now they have changed their rules.
I made the list, which is by no means complete, by using Google, very simple searches, anyone can do it.

andyA700

2,745 posts

38 months

Monday 18th December 2023

8.4L 154 said:

carlo996 said:

it's not about that whatsoever. You may as well allow steroids into the sports, such is the advantage physically between the two (yes two) biological make ups.

You are a very disturbed person, using that as an example

andyA700

2,745 posts

38 months

Monday 18th December 2023

MrsMiggins said:

Men's athletic performance isn't just their current testosterone level. The advantage is baked in in the womb and during puberty.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/148446942483707...

Not sure the analogy Ross uses is his best, but it explains why males don't belong in female sport, t-suppressed or not.

Ross Tucker and Emma Hilton are about the best sources for information on this subject.

8.4L 154

5,530 posts

254 months

Monday 18th December 2023

FIFY

andyA700 said:

Ross Tucker and Emma Hilton are about the ~~best~~ most biased sources for information on this subject.

Emma Hilton is a founding board member of sex matters, a campaign lobby group fronted by Maya forstater which does nothing except campaign for removing all trans inclusion and rights. Her 'research' essay had more rodents and cancer patients included than elite trans athletes, yet forms the basis of all the trans sports bans.

Randy Winkman

16,208 posts

190 months

Monday 18th December 2023

andyA700 said:

Randy Winkman said:

andyA700 said:

Randy Winkman said:

8.4L 154 said:

SlimJim16v said:

MrsMiggins said:

Doesn't work in practice.

Because they lose the advantage they have competing against women.

Go on then name 6 trans swimmers who would compete in the same event. You need more than Lia Thomas for a swim meet and last I heard she wasn't swimming any more. Should be easy as every trans person competing in sport seems to get reported in the Daily mail, even if its a local club cycling event in Chicago where the other three competitors were just thankful they had someone to race against and came out strongly in support of the trans competitors

I agree. The DM wants us to think there's a trans invasion of sport when their isn't.

Each of those is in it's own way, very important and I'm not saying I think that any of them are fair. But for every one of those I'd hazard a guess that there are at least 100 stories that don't involve transgender women.

Out of interest, how did you make such a list?

How did I compile this list, maybe why?
I used to compete at a couple of sports at county level, sometimes against internationals. I know the difference between men and women, their capabilities in sports, so back in 2018 when I first saw an article about Rachel McKinnon winning a Masters World title at track cycling, I thought it had to be a windup, but it wasn't, so I contacted British Cycling to ask them if they thought this was OK. At that time, they thought I was being out of order, thankfully now they have changed their rules.
I made the list, which is by no means complete, by using Google, very simple searches, anyone can do it.

Thanks for your reply. Why did I ask? Just curious as to how you are able to be ready with such a list as it suggests either a fair bit of work putting it together or perhaps just knowledge of a place on line where it was ready to be found and used. Just wondered which it was. smile

AstonZagato

12,721 posts

211 months

Monday 18th December 2023

andyA700 said:

8.4L 154 said:

carlo996 said:

it's not about that whatsoever. You may as well allow steroids into the sports, such is the advantage physically between the two (yes two) biological make ups.

You are a very disturbed person, using that as an example

I'm on testosterone blockers and hormone treatments for advanced prostate cancer. I'd still back myself against any woman of my age that I know in a physical sport.

Biggy Stardust

6,936 posts

45 months