World Athletics transgender women ban

[Randy Winkman]

Biggy Stardust said:

Randy Winkman said:

chrispmartha said:

Biggy Stardust said:

chrispmartha said:

But the word CIS literally does exist as does trans.

Trans gender people exist, they have done for thousands of years.

Do you have any evidence of sex-change operations or hormone therapy a thousand years ago? Or even a hundred years ago? Anywhere in the world will do.

If you have no such evidence then I will call bullst on your claims.

You don’t need to have a sex change operation or hormone therapy to be trans gender.

Anyway just google it, this was the first entry on my google search.

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/transgender-gender-d...

Exactly. Biggy Stardust's post showed ignorance of the whole issue.

" I identify as "= " I pretend to be " and is not the same from a perspective of sporting activities, as per the thread topic.

Folks are born with XX or XY chromosomes & no amount of 'feelings' will change that.

Mediocre male athletes becoming "female" world champions is utter bullst; I do not consider this to be proposed from a position of ignorance. I'm sorry if this isn't sufficiently caring or empathetic in your view but tough titty.

You are making up your own definitions of words and suggesting the whole world works around them. The words "gender" and "transgender" are real words and have generally accepted meanings. Transgender people do not have to have had sex change operations or hormone therapy. If you say that you are being one of the 2 meanings of ignorant. Uneducated or rude.

[Biker's Nemesis]

I don't know, we'll have Men Beauty Shows next, then there will be uproar from (real) Women accusing (real) Men of taking everything from them while all the time its trans Men taking the "you know what".

I've read this thread from the start and I can't believe the way the World is heading neither can I get my head around the way some people advocate what is quite clearly wrong to be in some way Right.

(is this all a big wheeze to control population)

[Rufus Stone]

Trans people are really extra terrestrials from Alpha Centauri. They are trying to take over the world.

[QJumper]

chrispmartha said:

Well, would you say wearing a skirt is anything to do with biology? Wearing eye shadow? High Heels?

These are clearly things that are associated with gender, and are not biological. So to try deny gender is a thing seems pretty ridiculous.

To be fair, I don't think anyone is trying to deny gender, and are just coming from the position that throughout almost all of human history gender was linked to biolgical sex. Eg, when asked what gender you are, you would generally reply male or female, as sex and gender were interchangeable terms. The fact that there might be exceptions to that binary, doesn't change things for most people. If anything they are additions to that grouping, and not necessarily reasons to alter the basic meanings.

You're example of clothing is somwhat obfuscated, largely because of the modern, and inaccurate (in my opinion) claim that gender is a social construct. In historical and mostly current understandiing, it isn't. More accurately, gender roles/stereotypes are the social construct, and not gender itself. So, to your example, they are linked to biological sex, as they're considered accoutrements of the gender associated with that sex.

All that said, I do understand the difficulties and challenges faced by those who are trans which we, as a society, have a responsibility to accomodate where posssible and practical. Equally though, it's incumbent upon the trans community to recgnise that most people do not see calling a trans woman a woman as any more accurate than calling a trans woman female. Most people are happy to do it, but more out of politeness and courtesy than any understanding or acceptance of the claimed differences and nuances between sex and gender. This may work most of the time, but will always result in conflict when the biological differences are a significant part of the issue.

How that reality is dealt with, to everyone's satisfaction, is anyone's guess.

[The Selfish Gene]

I am genuinely ignorant to the modern ways of looking at a lot of things. This issue included.

I haven't read all of the thread, but I just did spend some time googling to help me understand.

A couple of things stick out.

1. How much airtime the issue gets when it's such a small amount of the population that are in this particularly definition
2. The bit I didn't realise is, a person can simply decide to be Transgender. I was under the impression they had to have been medically changed to be the definition they wanted to be.

Obviously, point 2 is pretty odd when it comes to sport. I believe there would be a lot more sympathy for the sporting side of things, if there was some attempt at the transition before a man turning up and competing in women's sport. As clearly there are two classes for a reason.

How would it be different if a able bodied trans person decided to compete in paralympics etc?

Just seems really odd.

Also - do any Trans Men (if I've got it the right way around, i.e. a women that wants to be a man) try to compete in male categories?

I've read some of the articles with then women that have spent years training getting the floor wiped with a trans, and I get their argument completely to be honest.

[QJumper]

otolith said:

I think the whole conversation is much wider and more difficult than the specific problems of domains like sport and medicine where gender is irrelevant - I was a bit surprised by the reaction to my suggestion that they just take themselves out of it by focusing specifically on sex, which perhaps illustrates how much the debate is about politics and emotion rather than practicality. To be honest I expected more of a negative reaction from the other side of the debate, because I suspect the effect of creating a “female” category alongside the “women’s” category would probably result in many or even most cisgender women choosing to compete in the former category rather than the latter.

I would agree that it's more about politics and emotion than dealing with practical realities.

If it were me, and issues like this affected men. I'd have been labelling everything, like sports, toilets, prisons etc "male" long ago. Thus heading off any such future issues at the pass, while leaving others to carry on arguing about their feelings.

To me, it seems that the logical solution to anyone trying to muscle their way into my category, via semantics, pseudo science or attempts to create ambiguity of meaning, would be to simply rebrand the category to one that's impenetrable to those attempts.

[QJumper]

The Selfish Gene said:

Also - do any Trans Men (if I've got it the right way around, i.e. a women that wants to be a man) try to compete in male categories?

I would imagine it's worse for trans men, and why I see it as only a trans women issue, and not a trans one.

For example, if we said that sport was based on gender identity, the trans women would be able to compete with biological females. However, trans men would stand no chace against biological males, and would thus be effectively excluded; and would also be barred from competing against women due to identiity, and therefore unable to compete in sports at all.

[The Selfish Gene]

QJumper said:

The Selfish Gene said:

Also - do any Trans Men (if I've got it the right way around, i.e. a women that wants to be a man) try to compete in male categories?

I would imagine it's worse for trans men, and why I see it as only a trans women issue, and not a trans one.

For example, if we said that sport was based on gender identity, the trans women would be able to compete with biological females. However, trans men would stand no chace against biological males, and would thus be effectively excluded; and would also be barred from competing against women due to identiity, and therefore unable to compete in sports at all.

well exactly - which is the reason it should be banned the other way around - which it seems it has been.

The simple answer is - just don't compete if your'e a biological, real, original (or whatever the correct term is) women.

They all need to just say no.

I presume the problem comes when it's hard to tell.........which I'm guessing rarely happens but could (assuming they don't have to admit it up front)

Also, isn't there a testosterone limit or something that some genuine women have fallen foul of in the rules in the past? OR did I dream that?

[Biggy Stardust]

Randy Winkman said:

You are making up your own definitions of words and suggesting the whole world works around them. The words "gender" and "transgender" are real words and have generally accepted meanings. Transgender people do not have to have had sex change operations or hormone therapy. If you say that you are being one of the 2 meanings of ignorant. Uneducated or rude.

You're born either male or female. Anything else is statisticaly irrelevant. Pretending or feeling that you are a different gender does not make it so, no matter how caring, empathetic or progressive you wish to be.

You can have bits nailed on or removed but that doesn't alter how you're born no matter how much you feel you're "in the wrong body". Those mediocre male athletes who do so & then go on to dominate female sport obviously have a few issues to deal with but shouldn't do so by denying genuine women a place in their sport for which they've worked hard, only to be beaten by transgender bullst.

Calling me ignorant, uneducated or rude will not change anything. Insults do not change facts.

[NDA]

I think there's a sort of creeping logic within the language that is unavoidable - it's overtaken the biology question.

Should a trans gender woman (a man who is now living his life as a woman) be regarded as a woman? Of course - why not? Be who you want to be, identify and explore to your heart's content. This seems a reasonable, sophisticated and liberal view to take.

Ah-ha! If I am regarded as a woman, then I must have all the 'rights' and access to spaces that all women have - including competing as a woman. Irrespective of the feelings of anyone else - who may not regard you as a woman, but feel unable to voice an opinion for fear of being labelled as transphobic and receiving death threats or being raped (which seems the normal response on social media).

There is a disconnect between wanting to include trans women and yet not give them (for reasons already cited here) the same full rights as biological women.

[Randy Winkman]

Biggy Stardust said:

Randy Winkman said:

You are making up your own definitions of words and suggesting the whole world works around them. The words "gender" and "transgender" are real words and have generally accepted meanings. Transgender people do not have to have had sex change operations or hormone therapy. If you say that you are being one of the 2 meanings of ignorant. Uneducated or rude.

You're born either male or female. Anything else is statisticaly irrelevant. Pretending or feeling that you are a different gender does not make it so, no matter how caring, empathetic or progressive you wish to be.

You can have bits nailed on or removed but that doesn't alter how you're born no matter how much you feel you're "in the wrong body". Those mediocre male athletes who do so & then go on to dominate female sport obviously have a few issues to deal with but shouldn't do so by denying genuine women a place in their sport for which they've worked hard, only to be beaten by transgender bullst.

Calling me ignorant, uneducated or rude will not change anything. Insults do not change facts.

The trouble is that when you give an opinion people can see that it's in the context of your denial of straightforward facts. i.e. that words "gender" and "transgender" have dictionary definitions. I don't think that helps you very much. For instance, I don't think that people born male should take part in competitive sports (most of the time) with people born female. But I'm now arguing with you on the internet and don't want to be associated with your views.

[WY86]

How is this even a discussion! Men cannot transform into women or vice versa! No matter how many drugs or operations they undergo!

Nothing underlines how crazy the world is when this last women's world cup, Canada had a non binary player.. non binary but playing in the WOMENS team! Funny how this non binary person didn’t want to try their ability against men in the mens divisions!

[MrsMiggins]

A group of women pool players is crowdfunding to take tournament organisers to court to prevent the continuing inclusion of transwomen in women's tournaments.

https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/let-women-play-p...

[chrispmartha]

WY86 said:

Nothing underlines how crazy the world is when this last women's world cup, Canada had a non binary player.. non binary but playing in the WOMENS team! Funny how this non binary person didn’t want to try their ability against men in the mens divisions!

That’s really not that crazy. Isn’t that what you want? A person participating in a sport based in their biological sex?

[WY86]

chrispmartha said:

That’s really not that crazy. Isn’t that what you want? A person participating in a sport based in their biological sex?

How dare you.. they are non binary..

But yes i was going for more the point that a non binary person is quite happy to play in a womens team in a women's tournament! So much for they/them.

[chrispmartha]

WY86 said:

chrispmartha said:

That’s really not that crazy. Isn’t that what you want? A person participating in a sport based in their biological sex?

How dare you.. they are non binary..

But yes i was going for more the point that a non binary person is quite happy to play in a womens team in a women's tournament! So much for they/them.

I believe football allows trans and non binary people to play in the category of their choice. Which if you believed what the daily mail et al are saying the recent women's foorball world cup would be full of Trans Women

[WY86]

chrispmartha said:

I believe football allows trans and non binary people to play in the category of their choice. Which if you believed what the daily mail et al are saying the recent women's foorball world cup would be full of Trans Women

Right so basically non binary does not really exist then if they are happy to choose a sex/gender to play under. Hardly committed to being non gender. Let me guess gender fluid is the get out
Of jail free card.

[chrispmartha]

WY86 said:

chrispmartha said:

I believe football allows trans and non binary people to play in the category of their choice. Which if you believed what the daily mail et al are saying the recent women's foorball world cup would be full of Trans Women

Right so basically non binary does not really exist then if they are happy to choose a sex/gender to play under. Hardly committed to being non gender. Let me guess gender fluid is the get out
Of jail free card.

Why do you care? Being non binary doesn’t give them any advantage in their chosen category

[WY86]

chrispmartha said:

Why do you care? Being non binary doesn’t give them any advantage in their chosen category

Because it is a NONSENSE. It is slowly bleeding into schools and children which will create even more problems down the line. Besides the fact you can’t be non binary!

[chrispmartha]

WY86 said:

chrispmartha said:

Why do you care? Being non binary doesn’t give them any advantage in their chosen category

Because it is a NONSENSE. It is slowly bleeding into schools and children which will create even more problems down the line. Besides the fact you can’t be non binary!

It might be nonsense to you, but not to others.

People are non binary so people clearly can be non binary, really not sure why it would bother you as it’s nothing to do with you, just let people live their own lives.