Discussion
There must be thousands of empty properties across the UK that could be used as accommodation, empty schools, hospital, nursing homes, hotels and even office blocks.
These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Electro1980 said:
It can support far more than it does, like many countries do.
"More" means nothing. How many more? What is the optimum population density you'd like for the UK? Oliver Hardy said:
There must be thousands of empty properties across the UK that could be used as accommodation, empty schools, hospital, nursing homes, hotels and even office blocks.
These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
Another problem is that empty homes / buildings are still owned by somebody. Converting office blocks is a great idea, however getting planning for change of use is never easy. A couple of posters in here are knowledgable in this area. These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
Electro1980 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Electro1980 said:
It can support far more than it does, like many countries do.
"More" means nothing. How many more? What is the optimum population density you'd like for the UK? What do I think would be perfect for the UK? 10-20% less people. Then you wouldnt have so many people bringing up kids in flats and the infrastructure would be a bit less crowded.
Of course if Scotland increased its population to be the same as the Southeast of England for the same overall population that would massively take the pressure off. Not much chance of them doing that, though.
crankedup5 said:
I have seen the ‘more more more’ trope banded about, never actually get a number though.
Can you engage reasonably, or do you always have to result to that kind of childish behaviour? Perhaps if you started from a point of good faith rather than painting anyone you disagree with as automatically unreasonable you might get somewhere. Stop talking about ‘more more more’ and ‘open boarders’ and start listening. I note you have never put a number on what you think is “reasonable”, explained why it is acceptable we take less than most other countries or provided an answer on the question of how you think human rights treaties are out of date.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Electro1980 said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Electro1980 said:
It can support far more than it does, like many countries do.
"More" means nothing. How many more? What is the optimum population density you'd like for the UK? What do I think would be perfect for the UK? 10-20% less people. Then you wouldnt have so many people bringing up kids in flats and the infrastructure would be a bit less crowded.
Of course if Scotland increased its population to be the same as the Southeast of England for the same overall population that would massively take the pressure off. Not much chance of them doing that, though.
The problem is a lot of them are not escaping anything they are freeloaders, and the only issue is that massive cuts have made it impossible to sort it out, hence we are here. That also means genuine people get caught up, the freeloaders know this of course.
I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
LukeBrown66 said:
The problem is a lot of them are not escaping anything they are freeloaders, and the only issue is that massive cuts have made it impossible to sort it out, hence we are here. That also means genuine people get caught up, the freeloaders know this of course.
I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
Agree makes me chuckle that a couple of gammons I know who "hate the bloody imigrants" use the £5 car wash down the old Esso garage.... I mean ......really I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
Electro1980 said:
crankedup5 said:
I have seen the ‘more more more’ trope banded about, never actually get a number though.
Can you engage reasonably, or do you always have to result to that kind of childish behaviour? Perhaps if you started from a point of good faith rather than painting anyone you disagree with as automatically unreasonable you might get somewhere. Stop talking about ‘more more more’ and ‘open boarders’ and start listening. I note you have never put a number on what you think is “reasonable”, explained why it is acceptable we take less than most other countries or provided an answer on the question of how you think human rights treaties are out of date.
My view is echoed very widely across the Country, you may dislike it but it is the reason Government has made the issue top five priority, and Labour have now indicated that they will follow this Governments principles in controlling migration. Why do you think that is? I will tell you, because broad public opinion tells the Government of its concerns with small boats rocking up on our beaches. We do not have the infrastructure to be able to accept these people. They are costing us over two billion pounds each year and rising. Most of these people are young males.
So stop waffling on about how tough it is for migrants and how the U.K. doesn’t offer much help, it’s
offering brilliant help to those from Hong Kong, Ukraine and Syria in particular.
Why should I put a number on what I think is a reasonable number of migrants entering the U.K you are the one shouting out about it.
There you go I have engaged, again.
LukeBrown66 said:
The problem is a lot of them are not escaping anything they are freeloaders, and the only issue is that massive cuts have made it impossible to sort it out, hence we are here. That also means genuine people get caught up, the freeloaders know this of course.
I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
You won’t get a sensible reply.I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
Electro1980 said:
Can you engage reasonably, or do you always have to result to that kind of childish behaviour? Perhaps if you started from a point of good faith rather than painting anyone you disagree with as automatically unreasonable you might get somewhere. Stop talking ... and start listening.
This exact line can be aimed at both "sides" of the debate. Neither side are willing to give a number, because the "other" side will just snipe at it, regardless of how big or how small it is.
Neither side will admit they are wrong.
Neither side will admit to being extreme (one way or the other), yet will be accused of being "far left" or "far right", when neither is accurate.
This is the way of NPE.
The only thing I would say, is if one ONLY engages in NPE and doesn't contribute to the site elsewhere, then maybe one should just bugger off to Twitter, where arguments are far more welcome.
Electro1980 said:
So, no more refugees? We become an insular “I’m alright jack” country?
I made no comment on refugees and I offered no plan on how reduce population. I just stated the density I would like in response to your direct question. Clearly we can't have no refugees. And we have no idea which of us is most virtuous in terms of population because you won't say what population density you aspire to so yours could be way lower than mine. For all we know you like Small Market towns big skies, open fields and hills. In fact your reluctance to state your desired population density is a pretty good indicator your ideal is eye wateringly low. If it's was 500,000,000 you'd be gagging to show how virtuous you are! In fact, I reckon yours is lower than mine.
crankedup5 said:
LukeBrown66 said:
The problem is a lot of them are not escaping anything they are freeloaders, and the only issue is that massive cuts have made it impossible to sort it out, hence we are here. That also means genuine people get caught up, the freeloaders know this of course.
I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
You won’t get a sensible reply.I have witnessed it first hand in France and here, and these people are just off as soon as they get here, I have seen them running out of cars, over fields, both sides of the channel.
it is a huge issue and only really fixed with proper controls. Lincolnshire has a lot of work for unskilled people that is probably a reason too. Work that the general populous used to do but now refuse to do as eastern European immigration has pushed the wages down to such a level it is worth more to not work, then these bosses botch to government about a lack of workers, it;'s your effing fault for pushing the wages down so much you morons.
One tip
Stop using hand car washes, that is the main area they work, do your job, wash your own car.
Maybe do something about that 'only issue'?
Properly fund the Home Office so it can process claims quickly, effectively and humanely - so the genuine asylum seekers can be identified and supported, the good-faith economic migrants who can be identified and verified can be processed through the immigration system and the remaining freeloaders, chancers, liars and fraudsters (whatever portion of the total that is) can be deported, returned or dealt with via the justice system as appropriate. Build decent, humane accomodation, care and processing facilities on some of the surplus MoD estate for the purpose. When/if the migrant crisis diminishes, it can be put to other purposes so do it properly and don't just put up a load of marquees and portakabins with no infrastructure or pastoral care.
Properly fund Border Force so that crossings (of all sorts) are monitored and intercepted so arrivals don't just vanish and get properly administered by the above system.
Provide meaningful official systems and paths of entry so claims can be processed before people reach the 'dinghy across the Channel' stage. Which also opens up the possibility of a "if you don't come via the proper channel then [bad things]" without being purposefully cruel about it.
Work constructively with other countries and supranational organisations to do what can be done to solve the problem 'at source' (i.e. not creating more refugees and migrants) and share the load - but be aware that this may well end up with the UK taking more people than it does at the moment. The issue of migration into Europe from south and east is only going to get worse as climate change and political strategic shifts start to bite. We need to get this right, and we are spectacularly failing to do so now in what amounts to a practice run. We're heading for a Nineteen Eighty-Four situation, and I don't mean that in the way it's usually meant in NP&E - I mean it in the "cinemas of British citizens whoop with joy as they watch government-issued footage of migrants being gunned down in the middle of the sea by helicopters" sense.
We live in a system that requires perpetual growth, and that includes population. If that's not going to change, government needs to make the big strategic decisions to deal with that rather than just assuming that it will all pan out or be someone else's problem. If we need more housing, ensure there's more housing. If we need more school places, build more schools and train more teachers. If we need more GP and hospital capacity, build it and train/hire/retain more medical staff. Do something about the dire transport infrastructure in much of the country. Promoting policies that grow population without keeping up the physical, social and economic infrastructure to support and sustain that (i.e. the policy of every administration for the past 30-odd years, if not more) is abrogation of one of the basic duties of government.
Edit: If we're really clamouring for numbers, my gut feeling on a practical population density for the UK is about 300-320 p/km2, so probably a population of about 75 million. That is assuming that the infrastructure (of all sorts) is there to support it.
Edited by 2xChevrons on Friday 31st March 14:28
crankedup5 said:
Oliver Hardy said:
There must be thousands of empty properties across the UK that could be used as accommodation, empty schools, hospital, nursing homes, hotels and even office blocks.
These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
Another problem is that empty homes / buildings are still owned by somebody. Converting office blocks is a great idea, however getting planning for change of use is never easy. A couple of posters in here are knowledgable in this area. These people are escaping war, persecution, death so converting an office block for them should be acceptable, as long as it provides the basics. After all this is being done for UK families.
Loads of empty buildings are owned by councils, governments, would buildings like empty hospitals and nursing homes need planning permission and planning can be pushed through if needed.
2xChevrons said:
Edit: If we're really clamouring for numbers, my gut feeling on a practical population density for the UK is about 300-320 p/km2, so probably a population of about 75 million. That is assuming that the infrastructure (of all sorts) is there to support it.
Which raises the question should all countries be at that value of density? Or should some countries have a dramatically lower population density so they have spare food to export to us? And could the world support that density of everywhere had a morally acceptable population density which, we know is higher than the UK's....and if so would it be ok for us to have a dramatically lower population density so we can grow food as well. (Not enough to have a surplus to export, obvs.)
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