“National Conservatism”

[Eric Mc]

Vanden Saab said:

Winner of the NP&E tenuous connections award 2023 and it is still only May. Are the links to unfortunate historical connotations also as tenuous as 'Nat-Cs'? It would not have been complete without links to the rag that has just had to remove a racist cartoon from it's website. Well played.

How are you with their policies and aims?
Do you support them or are you concerned about them?

[JuanCarlosFandango]

deckster said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Sounds reasonable enough to me. Low birth rates are a problem, and if they Guardian aren't calling you a far right lunatic then you're doing something very wrong.

deckster said:

https://www.theamericanconservative.com/national-c...

Racists, xenophobes, religious bigots and homophobes.

Certain posters here will love them.

If it wasn't clear, this is the US group sponsoring the conference. A delightful bunch I'm sure we can agree.

Principles look alright to me. What is Nazi like about any of that?

[smn159]

2xChevrons said:

There's also a fair amount of 'Christian heritage', 'Christian values' and general God-bothering in there, which also screams "American evangelical funding pipeline"

Yep, it's a chance for Braverman and Rees-Mogg to spout well funded bks to idiots

[Randy Winkman]

BigMon said:

Just like Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum, do they honestly believe those of us who are non-partisan and just want what's best for Britain are crying out for this absolute tripe?

It honestly makes me just look on with despair.

Exactly. They might impress some members and gain some power within the party but that isn't going to get the party itself anywhere. I sometimes describe myself as a bit of a "lefty" on PH but I'd vote Conservative if it was of the "moderate, economically centre right and socially liberal" type that Otolith suggested. That sums me up really and there must be lots of us ripe for the picking.

[2xChevrons]

230TE said:

I can't see anything intrinsically Fascist about looking to address that problem at source, rather than relying on other countries to supply an endless stream of young people so we can keep kicking the can down the road. I suppose it depends on what solutions the natalists come up with.

I would also argue that social conservatism is not in any way an indicator of Fascism. Not sure whether you are being deliberately provocative or just sloppy with language. Fascists interfere endlessly with social structures and norms for their own ends.

There's nothing instrinscially fascist about any one of the things on my list. To re-word the "if quacks like a duck, walks like a duck..." test, having webbed feet, a broad bill and or a long neck doesn't mean a bird with any one of those features is a duck. But ducks have them all.

And social conservatism absolutely is an indicator of fascism - you seem to be meaning it in a 'small government, leave things as they are' sense, but a cornerstone of fascism is the 'rescuing' of national/cultural values and institutions from some (perceived or real) decline, destruction or threat and then vigorously (and usually violently) enforcing them. Fascism is inherently - almost definitively - reactionary, and whenever and wherever it rises its rallying cry is always that some 'other' is damaging the 'correct' form of society by implementing (sinister) progressive values. Fascism was, and is, always about protecting existing social structures and hierarchies by enforcing traditional social norms.

This is an interesting but slightly irrelevant discussion anyway, because I'm explicitly not calling the NatCons fascists, just fash-y ("Fash-Lite - same great taste as Fash Classic, but without the empty calories). They don't fully commit to any of the hallmarks - for instance, they're not suggesting a fully corporatised, top-down managed economy. Just state management (not ownership) of key infrastructure, 'ring fencing' of key economic sectors and an actual industrial strategy rather than the hands-off status quo of the past few decades. They're not literally spouting ethnonationalism, just nationalism with some racial dogwhistles that they may not even be aware of because they're reading stuff prepared for them by an American think tank. And so on.

They're not the full duck, but they might well be a small goose.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Tuesday 16th May 09:28

[DeejRC]

I’d be delighted if we have an economic centre right party.
Every single one of them is centre left and beyond

[Randy Winkman]

DeejRC said:

I’d be delighted if we have an economic centre right party.
Every single one of them is centre left and beyond

I'd argue that in recent years we've seen economic policy along the lines of "chuck money at problems (and often our friends) rather than try and sort them out properly". I don't really think that comes anywhere on the left-right scale. Would Karl Marx have approved?

[anonymous-user]

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Sounds reasonable enough to me. Low birth rates are a problem, and if they Guardian aren't calling you a far right lunatic then you're doing something very wrong.

Rees-Mogg has six, Johnson probably more than that... The issue isn't low birth rates it's the wrong people having more than one or two. They want the proletariat to have more children so they can pick fruit and drive HGVs. Do you think Rees-Mogg kids will be don't any of that? I have one child because that's all we wanted, she gets loved and appreciated, and we can do nice things because it's cheaper than having two or three..... And Rees-Mogg can fk himself if he thinks she is only good enough to pick his strawberries and drive his lorries

[bigothunter]

pablo said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

Sounds reasonable enough to me. Low birth rates are a problem, and if they Guardian aren't calling you a far right lunatic then you're doing something very wrong.

Rees-Mogg has six, Johnson probably more than that... The issue isn't low birth rates it's the wrong people having more than one or two. They want the proletariat to have more children so they can pick fruit and drive HGVs. Do you think Rees-Mogg kids will be don't any of that? I have one child because that's all we wanted, she gets loved and appreciated, and we can do nice things because it's cheaper than having two or three..... And Rees-Mogg can fk himself if he thinks she is only good enough to pick his strawberries and drive his lorries

Single child syndrome can cause problems in later life...

[768]

BigMon said:

Just like Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum, do they honestly believe those of us who are non-partisan and just want what's best for Britain are crying out for this absolute tripe?

It honestly makes me just look on with despair.

They took over the Labour party though. I can't see that happening with this lot.

Thinking of other threads, if we ditch FPTP for PR expect the likes of this lot to have a louder voice.

[Bannock]

I'm all for this National Conservatism schtick. Hopefully it will rend the Conservative party in two, which will render them even less electable than they currently are. Go for it, headbangers, you have the floor. No more right-wing government for a generation. Brilliant.

[TTwiggy]

Brexit has destroyed the Tories.

[crankedup5]

pablo said:

This is making Sunak look incredibly weak though, some big names (albeit without a cabinet position) are making a lot of noise and not being held to account. Sunak wanders around chanting more three word slogans and this mob are creating a party within a party with a pretty horrendous sounding ideology.

Alas it could also be a tactical thing, the life long Tories will always vote Tory and may not approve of Sunak or even rate him that highly but their vote is secure… this Nat-C group then shore up the far right vote, then they all come back together at the general election under a “one Conservatives” banner…

The Tories seem oblivious to the fact that the country will embrace tactical voting at the next GE though.

Maybe it’s a good thing that the more radical section of the Tory Party are to form a new political party of themselves. Momentum tried it within the Labour party, it offers the electorate a wider choice at G.E after all. Read on here for years posters moaning about our two party system.
I’m not sure about tactical voting, seems to me to be an endorsement of allowing mediocrity.

[bigothunter]

Miriam Cates' comments capture critical issues accurately and eloquently. Perhaps I am a fascist after all ?

Guardian said:

Miriam Cates said western countries faced an existential threat from falling reproduction, arguing that a lack of family-friendly tax policy in the UK played a significant role, as well as a shortage of housing.

But Cates, seen as a rising star in a new generation of culture-war keen Tory MPs, also blamed too many young people attending university, the devaluing of motherhood, and what she described as the mass indoctrination of young minds.

[andyA700]

I had never heard of "National Conservatism" until today and then 15 minutes ago came across this - WTF?

https://twitter.com/NatConTalk/status/165822244460...

https://twitter.com/JewishWorker/status/1658251390...

[Gary C]

InitialDave said:

The slight difference is that the fascists, well, are.

This National Conservatism looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.


Probably walks more like a goose, though.

Oh, well played Sir

[Randy Winkman]

This NatCon now wants lower population:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/john-hayes-s...

It also says that he chairs the “anti-woke” Common Sense Group of Tory MPs. For me it's a warning sign when anyone uses the term "common sense" in their name. Closer inspection normally reveals anything but that. It actually says "Please don't look too closely -IT'S COMMON SENSE!"

[s2art]

2xChevrons said:

Cultural Marxism = classic hard-right euphemism, beloved of Viktor Orban. A meaningless term that has its origins as a Nazi antisemitic conspiracy theory.

You sure about that? See

https://fee.org/articles/antonio-gramsci-the-godfa...

[JagLover]

Randy Winkman said:

This NatCon now wants lower population:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/john-hayes-s...

He seems to be saying he wants it to stay closer to what it is now rather than lower.

Why is say, 75 million people, a better number of people in the country than 70 million?.

[cirian75]

Randy Winkman said:

This NatCon now wants lower population:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/john-hayes-s...

It also says that he chairs the “anti-woke” Common Sense Group of Tory MPs. For me it's a warning sign when anyone uses the term "common sense" in their name. Closer inspection normally reveals anything but that. It actually says "Please don't look too closely -IT'S COMMON SENSE!"

Sounds Gas chambery to me.