CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)
Discussion
r3g said:
gareth_r said:
I saw. But can't find any evidence of them actually having done it. If it had I could see it would be the sort of thing youtube et all would remove as "disinformation" courtesy of the "fact-checkers" but the alt sites aren't producing anything either.If this policy had been announced in summer 2020 as part of the “roadmap” which was nothing of the sort, then there’s a reasonable chance that, just like the issue of masks in classrooms, Johnson may well have followed suit.
Edited by alangla on Tuesday 23 April 14:40
r3g said:
You must have been particularly bored to even venture into that thread full of Idiocracy's film cast. There just aren't enough brightly coloured crayons in the world to 'save' them. They are all so deep down the 'it's just government incompetence bro, the government would never lie to me" rabbit hole there is no hope for them.
Coldel's endless psychoanalysis babble is amusing though, especially when he launches into one of his regular rants about people not being able to do critical thinking. The irony is completely lost on him
.
I'd like to try and have good discussions, but I do admit you will just end up going round in circles and then the inevitable sea-lioning occurs Coldel's endless psychoanalysis babble is amusing though, especially when he launches into one of his regular rants about people not being able to do critical thinking. The irony is completely lost on him
.
jameswills said:
I'd like to try and have good discussions, but I do admit you will just end up going round in circles and then the inevitable sea-lioning occurs
Been banned from that thread for months, but looked in there today and saw someone make valid points only to be told 'you're a CTer, Covid thread is over there--->'. Don't waste your time.
jameswills said:
vixen1700 said:
Been banned from that thread for months, but looked in there today and saw someone make valid points only to be told 'you're a CTer, Covid thread is over there--->'.
Don't waste your time.
True, I will leave it alone now.Don't waste your time.
Boringvolvodriver said:
jameswills said:
vixen1700 said:
Been banned from that thread for months, but looked in there today and saw someone make valid points only to be told 'you're a CTer, Covid thread is over there--->'.
Don't waste your time.
True, I will leave it alone now.Don't waste your time.
It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
Slagathore said:
The true sign of an idiot. Presented with a factual and easily verifiable post and doesn't have the knowledge or intellect to discuss - brand the opposition as a conspiracy theorist.
It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
Indeed - so common on social media sadly. When there is no argument, then just throw abuse and swearing seems to be the MO.It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
Thing is the media also were guilty with a very liberal use of “anti vaxxer”, “covid denier” and “lock down deniers”
We are living in a world where debate and counter views are not permitted - hell, there was an implication on the CT thread that by using The phrase MSM meant you were a CT ist!
Well I did try to see if I could get a reply from chromegrill by addressing a reply directly to him particularly wrt to his quote of John Bell stating ‘if you didn’t want to get myocarditis, get vaccinated’ that very clearly chose to ignore the very highly age stratified risk of both covid and the vaccines (in the other direction) and it was far from obvious below a certain age the risk/benefit was in favour. Can’t say I was surprised he chose to reply to various other posts and not that one.
Still I guess only the right people who are appropriately qualified and approved are supposed to question the likes of chromegrill and everyone else should just have faith in verified experts like him otherwise you’re a conspiracy theorist.
Edit - although I seem to just have got a reply to that latest post so let’s see how this goes……
Still I guess only the right people who are appropriately qualified and approved are supposed to question the likes of chromegrill and everyone else should just have faith in verified experts like him otherwise you’re a conspiracy theorist.
Edit - although I seem to just have got a reply to that latest post so let’s see how this goes……
Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 23 April 23:31
Good luck...I think several of us have tried to have a common sense debate in that thread and hit brick walls. But the same could be said of many threads on PH these days. It's gone the way of Twitter, where folks choose a side... and nothing, but nothing will make them change their view.
Slagathore said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
jameswills said:
vixen1700 said:
Been banned from that thread for months, but looked in there today and saw someone make valid points only to be told 'you're a CTer, Covid thread is over there--->'.
Don't waste your time.
True, I will leave it alone now.Don't waste your time.
It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
) the other day - calling for PH management to silence people who don't parrot the official narrative Chromegrill said:
4. In seven out of eight months between March and December 2021 the majority of patients getting admitted to ICU were unvaccinated (the exception being October). In every age group of people admitted to ICU, age-specific rates of unvaccinated people were at least ten times higher than vaccinated.
Yeah ok dude. 
I don't know of a single unvaccinated person within my circles who's had to go to hospital or had any health issues whatsoever beyond the usual seasonal sniffles.
And what happened to the Pandemic of the Unvaccinated which we were assured would definitely happen not long after the roll-out of the magic juice? Funny how that one went quiet all of a sudden. I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with all the unvaccinated being completely unaffected, continuing on with the their life as normal, wondering what all the fuss and drama was about. No definitely not. Just another coincidence.
Edited by r3g on Wednesday 24th April 09:48
I don’t think it’s healthy to try and debate across two different threads..
If Chromegrill is interested in discussing issues around COVID, which they really should be if they really were involved in the response at a ‘senior level’, then they should post here. The other thread is not, in my opinion, a place for any reasoned discussion.
As I have already said, despite the current presentation, I don’t believe this person is someone arguing from a neutral, authoritative position. They are as biased and emotionally driven as anyone else:
Isaldiri is absolutely right that COVID risk is massively correlated with age. It’s true that some younger people were badly impacted, but I think it’s also quite likely that this was made worse by our early treatment protocols. A lot of the deaths and serious illness in this group are of people placed into medically induced comas and intubated for weeks on end. This has a terrible toll on the body, which is why I understand it is far less likely to have been used on the elderly. The deaths of a very small number of young people were used as justification for the lockdowns through our Govts fear based propaganda. No one should be trying to use these arguments now without reflecting on the reality that changing treatments meant these deaths reduced later in the pandemic. The stories of doctors dying early were the most emotive and we should be asking why this happened. Not falling back on these obviously flawed arguments.
Chromegrills presentation of doubling rates of cases is wrong and it ignores all of the efforts that went into creating the Nightingales and the simple fact they were never used. They are trapped in the false dichotomy that the choices were lockdown or do nothing. They clearly still believe Sweden never existed.
As I have argued many times, the vaccines have clearly provided benefits for vulnerable who had a meaningful risk of dying and had yet to be exposed to this disease. For them, this obviously justifies taking an as yet uncertain risk of adverse reactions. For the young who were at minimal risk, this is far less clear. At a population scale it might make sense to argue that vaccination is the best way to avoid myocarditis. At an individual level this is obviously wrong and bordering on sociopathic. The young people who were coerced into vaccination and suffered entirely unnecessary adverse reactions were not necessarily the same ones that would have also experienced severe COVID illness. JCVI and the chief medical officers of the UK all agreed that the justifications for allowing vaccination of children were societal, not medical. Any vaccine induced harms did not replace COVID induced harms in this age group. They are additional to them.
There is no doubt that this was politicised. Vaccine passports and mandates were a political response, not a medically necessary one. I have a dim view of any medical professional that continues to argue coercion was necessary and that informed consent should have been abandoned. It was wrong and if they are any good at their job they should know that.
If Chromegrill is interested in discussing issues around COVID, which they really should be if they really were involved in the response at a ‘senior level’, then they should post here. The other thread is not, in my opinion, a place for any reasoned discussion.
As I have already said, despite the current presentation, I don’t believe this person is someone arguing from a neutral, authoritative position. They are as biased and emotionally driven as anyone else:
Isaldiri is absolutely right that COVID risk is massively correlated with age. It’s true that some younger people were badly impacted, but I think it’s also quite likely that this was made worse by our early treatment protocols. A lot of the deaths and serious illness in this group are of people placed into medically induced comas and intubated for weeks on end. This has a terrible toll on the body, which is why I understand it is far less likely to have been used on the elderly. The deaths of a very small number of young people were used as justification for the lockdowns through our Govts fear based propaganda. No one should be trying to use these arguments now without reflecting on the reality that changing treatments meant these deaths reduced later in the pandemic. The stories of doctors dying early were the most emotive and we should be asking why this happened. Not falling back on these obviously flawed arguments.
Chromegrills presentation of doubling rates of cases is wrong and it ignores all of the efforts that went into creating the Nightingales and the simple fact they were never used. They are trapped in the false dichotomy that the choices were lockdown or do nothing. They clearly still believe Sweden never existed.
As I have argued many times, the vaccines have clearly provided benefits for vulnerable who had a meaningful risk of dying and had yet to be exposed to this disease. For them, this obviously justifies taking an as yet uncertain risk of adverse reactions. For the young who were at minimal risk, this is far less clear. At a population scale it might make sense to argue that vaccination is the best way to avoid myocarditis. At an individual level this is obviously wrong and bordering on sociopathic. The young people who were coerced into vaccination and suffered entirely unnecessary adverse reactions were not necessarily the same ones that would have also experienced severe COVID illness. JCVI and the chief medical officers of the UK all agreed that the justifications for allowing vaccination of children were societal, not medical. Any vaccine induced harms did not replace COVID induced harms in this age group. They are additional to them.
There is no doubt that this was politicised. Vaccine passports and mandates were a political response, not a medically necessary one. I have a dim view of any medical professional that continues to argue coercion was necessary and that informed consent should have been abandoned. It was wrong and if they are any good at their job they should know that.
Boringvolvodriver said:
Slagathore said:
The true sign of an idiot. Presented with a factual and easily verifiable post and doesn't have the knowledge or intellect to discuss - brand the opposition as a conspiracy theorist.
It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
Indeed - so common on social media sadly. When there is no argument, then just throw abuse and swearing seems to be the MO.It's been the whole MO of the mental types over the pandemic. Anyone that is plainly not a conspiracy theorist that raises reasonable points and asks for accountability from governments, big pharma and 'the science' is smeared as a conspiracy theorist. Largely because no one wants to own up to the damage done or take responsibility for their actions.
It is, unfortunately, the world we live in and it won't change any time soon.
Thing is the media also were guilty with a very liberal use of “anti vaxxer”, “covid denier” and “lock down deniers”
We are living in a world where debate and counter views are not permitted - hell, there was an implication on the CT thread that by using The phrase MSM meant you were a CT ist!
Elysium said:
As I have already said, despite the current presentation, I don’t believe this person is someone arguing from a neutral, authoritative position. They are as biased and emotionally driven as anyone else
.......
There is no doubt that this was politicised. Vaccine passports and mandates were a political response, not a medically necessary one. I have a dim view of any medical professional that continues to argue coercion was necessary and that informed consent should have been abandoned. It was wrong and if they are any good at their job they should know that.
i think the issue is one making the assumption that as someone being involved in the public health response, one would tend to assume that being in that position they are neutral and not biased and emotionally driven as everyone else. Clearly that's not the case........
There is no doubt that this was politicised. Vaccine passports and mandates were a political response, not a medically necessary one. I have a dim view of any medical professional that continues to argue coercion was necessary and that informed consent should have been abandoned. It was wrong and if they are any good at their job they should know that.
Being a public health professional doesn't mean you aren't also human with all the associated foibles as well even if they liked to give the impression of being totally neutral and open to discussion. They are no more so than any other group, particularly a highly specialised one and tbh that means they are very quick to close ranks to any criticism.. Add that to a more generalised (imo) medical/public health view that the public are problems rather than their effective end customer and a generally very paternalistic view of the world, it is no surprise that the prevalent view in that group was very much for all manner of things 'for the greater good' and I don't think it's ever going to change either.
I don't really have a problem with someone insisting that the right thing to have done was to have tried to reduce infections by whatever means as long as they are happy to acknowledge the impact of doing so. It's a social/political decision after all so people should be free to disagree reasonably.
Where I do have more of an issue is he claims stuff as 'fact' which is intentionally misleading or just plain wrong - in that thread specifically wrt to the insistence of the benefit of vaccination for younger groups. His earlier quote of Bell wrt to myocarditis/vaccination was plainly wrong for that younger group and the exact same thing was used wrt to the AZN/ ViTT issue previously.
Edited by isaldiri on Wednesday 24th April 08:55
Who_Goes_Blue said:
That was against me - and when that failed they resorted to labelling me a troll - as you say no talking to them, they dont want to listen.
I find it interesting that generally speaking those from that thread who do venture across here tend just to post one liners - James6112 aka Gadgemac for one- rather than debate and with some exceptions, will respond likewise to a sensible discussion on “their” thread.I will leave them to it - I was tempted to reply to James6112 to ask him which of the various theories as to the origin of the covid virus he thinks is right but decided not to waste my fingers!
r3g said:
Chromegrill said:
4. In seven out of eight months between March and December 2021 the majority of patients getting admitted to ICU were unvaccinated (the exception being October). In every age group of people admitted to ICU, age-specific rates of unvaccinated people were at least ten times higher than vaccinated.
Yeah ok dude. I don't know of a single unvaccinated person within my circles who's had to go to hospital or had any health whatsoever beyond the usual seasonal sniffles.
And what happened to the Pandemic of the Unvaccinated which we were assured would definitely happen not long after the roll-out of the magic juice? Funny how that one went quiet all of a sudden. I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with all the unvaccinated being completely unaffected, continuing on with the their life as normal, wondering what all the fuss and drama was about. No definitely not. Just another coincidence.
Edited by r3g on Wednesday 24th April 00:47
Amazing correlation, as it transpired, between those who became sick and seriously ill, and close temporal proximity of jabs within those 14 days. Therefore 'unvaccinated'. Amazing statistical coincidence. But as we all know, folks, correlation /= causation, unless it proves what you want it to by creative moving of goalposts and tweaking of definitions. But yeah, us CT loons would say that. I wonder why Government stopped recording or distributing this information when the figures started going the other direction?
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