Israel invaded
Discussion
Not-The-Messiah said:
Reading the last page talking about democracy and dictators then read the news and it's all about what David Cameron as to say.
Tell me again when he was voted in by the public to represent us in this matter?
We also have a priminister who never really was elected as such.
We had an election in 2019 where the Conservatives were elected with a majority, which lets their leader appoint cabinet ministers.Tell me again when he was voted in by the public to represent us in this matter?
We also have a priminister who never really was elected as such.
KarlMac said:
Mojooo said:
Because the ratio of human life is 1 to 20,000 for European/American/Israeli - I don't think it matters in Gaza until you get 50,000 deaths. Or a few Europeans die of course!
You could make the same argument about Palestinian lives vs African Muslims life’s. Yet to see Muslims lobbying, campaigning or marching in protest of their brothers in Sudan, Eritrea or Somalialand/Puntland… I can’t quite put my finger on why they might hold Israel to different standards. Also its a false narrative to say its only Muslims on Palestinian sides, there are lots of other people from the UK supporting the cause. Even jews.
For anybody interested in seeing how attacks like this are defended Growling Sidewinder on Youtube is worth a look.
Its videos on the DCS simulator but a lot of that is based on known facts and its a close as the layman is going to get to understanding how a scenario like the one we have just seen works in real life.
Its videos on the DCS simulator but a lot of that is based on known facts and its a close as the layman is going to get to understanding how a scenario like the one we have just seen works in real life.
PRTVR said:
blueg33 said:
IMO - Israel have won this round with Iran. What they should do is take that win and not retaliate.
I don't think that will happen, Presumably Iran will keep supplying weapons to Hamas etc, I think they will see it as a reason to hit the source of the weapons. I'm surprised Iran actually targeted Israel directly from it's own soil & didn't think they would carry out their usual threats, i.e. all mouth & no trousers. I would be even more surprised if Israel hold back as demanded by Sleepy Joe & his lordship/stand-in PM Cameron - what form will this likely take?
There are many possible scenarios from taking out IRGC top brass one at a time, to a direct attack on their nuclear programme. However, unlike the destruction of the Osirak plant in Iraq, the Iranians are apparently much better prepared & it is debatable if Israel has the capability to successfully carry this out alone.
Watch this space I suppose.
There are many possible scenarios from taking out IRGC top brass one at a time, to a direct attack on their nuclear programme. However, unlike the destruction of the Osirak plant in Iraq, the Iranians are apparently much better prepared & it is debatable if Israel has the capability to successfully carry this out alone.
Watch this space I suppose.
Biker 1 said:
I'm surprised Iran actually targeted Israel directly from it's own soil & didn't think they would carry out their usual threats, i.e. all mouth & no trousers. I would be even more surprised if Israel hold back as demanded by Sleepy Joe & his lordship/stand-in PM Cameron - what form will this likely take?
There are many possible scenarios from taking out IRGC top brass one at a time, to a direct attack on their nuclear programme. However, unlike the destruction of the Osirak plant in Iraq, the Iranians are apparently much better prepared & it is debatable if Israel has the capability to successfully carry this out alone.
Watch this space I suppose.
If Israel retaliate, I think they will trigger more terrorist incidents around the world for countries that support Israel. The air defences demonstrated that Iran's attack was not effective, so their inclination will be to use other means to "punish" Israel.There are many possible scenarios from taking out IRGC top brass one at a time, to a direct attack on their nuclear programme. However, unlike the destruction of the Osirak plant in Iraq, the Iranians are apparently much better prepared & it is debatable if Israel has the capability to successfully carry this out alone.
Watch this space I suppose.
Half the problem with the Middle East is the "tit for tat" approach. No one has the balls to de-escalate. Its been like that for all my adult life (40 years), and no doubt for longer than that. They just continue taking actions that mean the populations of all the countries in the middle east are at direct risk, and the populations of supporters at indirect risk.
Frankly, someone need to grow some balls. I just see a region run by cowards and bullies without the capability to change.
As a result their populations are regularly killed and maimed, perpetuating the madness.
IMO. Now is the best time to be proactive an de-escalate, and TBH Israel should be a leader in that, not just a follower of "tit for tat" idiocy!
Mrr T said:
skwdenyer said:
I think you need to be careful using the term "democratic" as a token of reasonableness. Hitler was democratically elected. Mussolini was asked to form a Government within a notionally democratic framework. Other examples? Hugo Chavez, Robert Mugabe, Moahammed Marsi, Radovan Karadži?. Gaining power through democracy does not in any way render a regime immune from comparison with Iran.
I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
It's funny reading your posts. Your hatred of Israel is so intense and so all consuming you seem to have become a conspiracy theory.I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
Are you really suggesting Israel is controlled by some deep state force?
We know many dictators where originally elected. So was Hamas. What matters in a democracy is there will be a next election. A democracy is also about a free press, freedom of speech, a fair court system, etc.
The recent history of Israel is almost like watching the Brexit process - extremists with a very specific set of ideologies and vested interests fomenting unrest and fear in their own interests. Every time there has been a viable prospect of a sensible peace, it has been derailed by right-wingers including Netanyahu and his ilk. Just saying "because democracy" doesn't make those things right or proper or sensible or historically justifiable.
In times past, extreme Governments used to try to shut down dissent. But if you take the teachings of Goebbels and couple it with the power of modern media (social and otherwise), and back it up with deliberate support for enemies of the state to ensure violence breaks out when "useful" then you can turn a nation in favour of your extreme viewpoints without having to be overtly despotic.
Are you seriously suggesting that the current situation is better than if, say, the Baruk peace process had been continued? Or maybe the Oslo process? Are you seriously suggesting Hamas would have risen to power, and maintained it, without the (acknowledged and well-documented) support of those in Israeli politics who simultaneously decried them in public? Netanyahu himself has been open and quoted on the subject: the rise of Hamas was his intention, his policy, his deliberate act to fracture Palestinian cohesion and derail the chances of peace.
The blindness to these arguably treasonous acts is staggering. The unending defence of Israeli government policy, lapping up the false pretext of "Hamas are terrorists, elected by and representative of the Gazans, intent on destroying Israel, and with whom we can never negotiate (and please don't pay attention to the fact that we put them there in the first place)" is really quite frightening to me. It is precisely why we got Trump and Brexit; it is why the likes of Cambridge Analytica (allegedly deceased) and a number of notable Israeli outfits of similar ilk (very much still alive) have made a very good living out of stoking up reactionary fury amongst otherwise reasonable people.
None of this excuses the actions of Hamas in October. But those actions were the obvious and logical outcome from the path chosen by incumbent Israeli politicians.
Israel is quite capable of electing reasonable leaders, and of being a more mature and measured member of the global community. This Israeli government seems incapable of those things.
And that's before we move on to the current Iranian situation. Carrying out an airstrike on an embassy is an enormous red line. Had Iran bombed an Israeli embassy, Tehran would by now have been flattened! An Iranian response was obvious. It is widely documented that right-wing Israeli governments have been trying to draw the US into a conflict with Iran for a very long time.
I won't go on; it is not as if any of this is hidden, or secret. It is just bewildering to me that so many seem unable to grasp the basic rules of cause and effect.
Tommo87 said:
dukeboy749r said:
Tommo87 said:
Mrr T said:
skwdenyer said:
I think you need to be careful using the term "democratic" as a token of reasonableness. Hitler was democratically elected. Mussolini was asked to form a Government within a notionally democratic framework. Other examples? Hugo Chavez, Robert Mugabe, Moahammed Marsi, Radovan Karadži?. Gaining power through democracy does not in any way render a regime immune from comparison with Iran.
I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
It's funny reading your posts. Your hatred of Israel is so intense and so all consuming you seem to have become a conspiracy theory.I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
Are you really suggesting Israel is controlled by some deep state force?
We know many dictators where originally elected. So was Hamas. What matters in a democracy is there will be a next election. A democracy is also about a free press, freedom of speech, a fair court system, etc.
But, don’t let that bit of sane thought stop you from attempting and failing at trying to look any more important than everyone else on here.
Mojooo said:
What happens if The Donald becomes President.
He appears very pro Israel - he recognised their embassy in Jerusalem for example. The Israelis will feel very empowered if he comes into power.
He'll rape the US to enrich himself first. After that God only knows. But it's probably reasonable to say he will only make any situation worse.He appears very pro Israel - he recognised their embassy in Jerusalem for example. The Israelis will feel very empowered if he comes into power.
Whatever he does it won't be for the best interests of humanity, beit the US or the wider world.
Then again, he's so many axes to grind at home with a bit of luck somebody else will actually be making the decisions on US policy abroad.
Mojooo said:
What happens if The Donald becomes President.
He appears very pro Israel - he recognised their embassy in Jerusalem for example. The Israelis will feel very empowered if he comes into power.
His (jewish) son in law thought he could fix everything with the "deal of the centenary" He appears very pro Israel - he recognised their embassy in Jerusalem for example. The Israelis will feel very empowered if he comes into power.
he massively embarrassed himself.
blueg33 said:
If Israel retaliate, I think they will trigger more terrorist incidents around the world for countries that support Israel. The air defences demonstrated that Iran's attack was not effective, so their inclination will be to use other means to "punish" Israel.
....
And that is why Israel is almost certain to trigger some kind of retaliation - they are largely protected by their air defence systems and if terrorists incidents in other countries happen, well that's all rather useful for them as they have been actively seeking to have the US directly bring their military might against Iran. ....
Whether the US can or possibly even is actually able to keep any israeli actions to a level where it doesn't trigger a series of increasing reprisals is rather open to question given for all Biden's increasing criticism of Israel, he, like most other senior US politicians is simply going to default to the 'unquestioned support for Israel' mode that has been in place since the late 60s.
Edited by isaldiri on Monday 15th April 19:11
isaldiri said:
blueg33 said:
If Israel retaliate, I think they will trigger more terrorist incidents around the world for countries that support Israel. The air defences demonstrated that Iran's attack was not effective, so their inclination will be to use other means to "punish" Israel.
....
And that is why Israel is almost certain to trigger some kind of retaliation - they are largely protected by their air defence systems and if terrorists incidents in other countries happen, well that's all rather useful for them as they have been actively seeking to have the US directly bring their military might against Iran. ....
Whether the US can or possibly even is actually able to keep any israeli actions to a level where it doesn't trigger a series of increasing reprisals is rather open to question given for all Biden's increasing criticism of Israel, he, like most other senior US politicians is simply going to default to the 'questioned support for Israel' mode that has been in place since the late 60s.
Even the Times of Israel is turning anti-Semitic … ( am I doing this right ?)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israe...
Some were in IDF uniforms and holding guns. There were 20 or 30 of them who beat me as I shouted for help, hoping that soldiers would hear me. But they were the soldiers… I laid on the floor, as every one of them kicked me in the head and stomach,” Golan says.
Nothing to see here right - Israel is the the victim because they certainly respect innocent lives, and are not stealing more land and are the peacemakers by following international law …
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israe...
Some were in IDF uniforms and holding guns. There were 20 or 30 of them who beat me as I shouted for help, hoping that soldiers would hear me. But they were the soldiers… I laid on the floor, as every one of them kicked me in the head and stomach,” Golan says.
Nothing to see here right - Israel is the the victim because they certainly respect innocent lives, and are not stealing more land and are the peacemakers by following international law …
fizz47 said:
Even the Times of Israel is turning anti-Semitic … ( am I doing this right ?)
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israe...
Some were in IDF uniforms and holding guns. There were 20 or 30 of them who beat me as I shouted for help, hoping that soldiers would hear me. But they were the soldiers… I laid on the floor, as every one of them kicked me in the head and stomach,” Golan says.
Nothing to see here right - Israel is the the victim because they certainly respect innocent lives, and are not stealing more land and are the peacemakers by following international law …
To a certain section of Israeli society, liberal / left-wing = anti-semitic / treasonous.https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israe...
Some were in IDF uniforms and holding guns. There were 20 or 30 of them who beat me as I shouted for help, hoping that soldiers would hear me. But they were the soldiers… I laid on the floor, as every one of them kicked me in the head and stomach,” Golan says.
Nothing to see here right - Israel is the the victim because they certainly respect innocent lives, and are not stealing more land and are the peacemakers by following international law …
skwdenyer said:
Mrr T said:
skwdenyer said:
I think you need to be careful using the term "democratic" as a token of reasonableness. Hitler was democratically elected. Mussolini was asked to form a Government within a notionally democratic framework. Other examples? Hugo Chavez, Robert Mugabe, Moahammed Marsi, Radovan Karadži?. Gaining power through democracy does not in any way render a regime immune from comparison with Iran.
I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
It's funny reading your posts. Your hatred of Israel is so intense and so all consuming you seem to have become a conspiracy theory.I don't dislike the Israeli government for being headed up by a careerist politician; I dislike it for being controlled by forces that have deliberately and systematically sought to foment terror, fear and war in order to maintain their power base.
I acknowledge Israel is not a dictatorship; but that's not a pre-requisite for behaving abominably.
Are you really suggesting Israel is controlled by some deep state force?
We know many dictators where originally elected. So was Hamas. What matters in a democracy is there will be a next election. A democracy is also about a free press, freedom of speech, a fair court system, etc.
The recent history of Israel is almost like watching the Brexit process - extremists with a very specific set of ideologies and vested interests fomenting unrest and fear in their own interests. Every time there has been a viable prospect of a sensible peace, it has been derailed by right-wingers including Netanyahu and his ilk. Just saying "because democracy" doesn't make those things right or proper or sensible or historically justifiable.
In times past, extreme Governments used to try to shut down dissent. But if you take the teachings of Goebbels and couple it with the power of modern media (social and otherwise), and back it up with deliberate support for enemies of the state to ensure violence breaks out when "useful" then you can turn a nation in favour of your extreme viewpoints without having to be overtly despotic.
Are you seriously suggesting that the current situation is better than if, say, the Baruk peace process had been continued? Or maybe the Oslo process? Are you seriously suggesting Hamas would have risen to power, and maintained it, without the (acknowledged and well-documented) support of those in Israeli politics who simultaneously decried them in public? Netanyahu himself has been open and quoted on the subject: the rise of Hamas was his intention, his policy, his deliberate act to fracture Palestinian cohesion and derail the chances of peace.
The blindness to these arguably treasonous acts is staggering. The unending defence of Israeli government policy, lapping up the false pretext of "Hamas are terrorists, elected by and representative of the Gazans, intent on destroying Israel, and with whom we can never negotiate (and please don't pay attention to the fact that we put them there in the first place)" is really quite frightening to me. It is precisely why we got Trump and Brexit; it is why the likes of Cambridge Analytica (allegedly deceased) and a number of notable Israeli outfits of similar ilk (very much still alive) have made a very good living out of stoking up reactionary fury amongst otherwise reasonable people.
None of this excuses the actions of Hamas in October. But those actions were the obvious and logical outcome from the path chosen by incumbent Israeli politicians.
Israel is quite capable of electing reasonable leaders, and of being a more mature and measured member of the global community. This Israeli government seems incapable of those things.
And that's before we move on to the current Iranian situation. Carrying out an airstrike on an embassy is an enormous red line. Had Iran bombed an Israeli embassy, Tehran would by now have been flattened! An Iranian response was obvious. It is widely documented that right-wing Israeli governments have been trying to draw the US into a conflict with Iran for a very long time.
I won't go on; it is not as if any of this is hidden, or secret. It is just bewildering to me that so many seem unable to grasp the basic rules of cause and effect.
The Baruk proposal was the best chance for peace unfortunately it was rejected by Arafat. Who, it was said, was warned by Clinton would lead to the rise of the right in Isreal.
I also notice you seem to spend a lot of your time posting that those who disagree with you are always supporting Israel. Do you miss posts, such as mins above where I clearly set out my many criticisms of the Netanyahu government.
While Netanyahu's game of playing off the Palestine factions was dangerous. If you think the logical outcome of that was to launch an unprovoked attack on Israel you must follow some odd logic.
I understand cause and effect, and if the attack had come from the WB, while I would condemn it I could see why it happened.
But this is not the WB it's Gaza. The settlers have gone. There where no Israel forces on the ground. Other than restrictions on what crossed the border so as to stop arms it was a country. Lots of aid was sent. Lots of beach. Hamas could have made Gaza a prosperous state. As we know they did not make that choice. They decided to fire rockets, dig command centres under hospitals, then launch an attack murdering and raping.
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