Israel invaded

[M1AGM]

isaldiri said:

M1AGM said:

You're so wrong it is laughable. Hamas didnt win the 2006 election legitimately. In fact the external monitoring of the election counted over 200 instances of interferring by both hamas and fatah. In addition there was widespread condemnation of the result because hamas had ignored the sanctity of voting venues and were heavily tooled up to make sure people voted for them. Despite this horrible environment of coercion and violence they only won with 44% of the votes cast. Furthermore Israel interfered heavily with voting in East Jerusalem and in the wider region to stop many palestinians being able to vote at all. So your assertion is bks straight out of the zionist propaganda handbook.

You probably are going to be hard put to call the 2006 election illegitimately won by Hamas. the population was utterly fed up by the hopelessly corrupt Fatah administration and were entirely content to have someone else (and especially someone else who had adroitly directed some of their funding into direct help which was rather more than Fatah had managed) come in. History has since shown that Fatah were equally happy to postpone elections in the west bank because they were terrified that Hamas would oust them so intimidation and interference isn't just one sided.

Whether or not one then believes the gazan population deserves what it gets due to the misdeeds of Hamas though then depends on how far one supports Israeli actions I suppose (while cheerily ignoring the counter argument that israeli actions in the west bank are also a direct contributor to palestinian attacks....)

I was making the point that the elections in 2006 were not how the pro-Israelis describe the environment and outcome, to justify their ‘they deserve it’ approach. As you say there were other factors at play, but taking into account the 44% (hardly overwhelming support) and the facts from observers on the ground seeing intimidation and violence, plus the many that were not allowed to vote, it was not a free and fair election in the western sense of democracy.

[youngsyr]

M1AGM said:

Oh what a surprise, selective quoting.

And on the same page you quoted from:

Although, the observers reported, Hamas had an advantage in mobilizing Palestinian facilities for its own political purposes."[36] Violating the code of conduct, Hamas was able to use its militias and networks for propaganda and intimidation purposes, as well as heavily utilizing mosques for that purpose.[37] A national monitoring committee set up by the Arab Thought Forum recorded reports of 242 violations in total throughout the election. The Canadian International Development Agency reported that international observers were concerned "about the threat that widespread possession of arms poses to the future of the democratic electoral process." The threat of violence affected the conduct of the election, culminating in a few violent confrontations and undermining the independence of the Central Election Commission.

I posted the conclusions of three independent bodies, all of whom concluded it was legitimate.

No one has claimed it was perfect.

[youngsyr]

M1AGM said:

I was making the point that the elections in 2006 were not how the pro-Israelis describe the environment and outcome, to justify their ‘they deserve it’ approach. As you say there were other factors at play, but taking into account the 44% (hardly overwhelming support) and the facts from observers on the ground seeing intimidation and violence, plus the many that were not allowed to vote, it was not a free and fair election in the western sense of democracy.

No, you were trying to counter my point that the 2006 elections were legitimate, which 3 recognised independent bodies concluded.

Your relationship with the truth doesn't even extend to your own posts.

[z4RRSchris]

sometimes i think these posters are israeli PsyOps

[youngsyr]

z4RRSchris said:

sometimes i think these posters are israeli PsyOps

I try to keep my opinion of certain posters private.

[M1AGM]

youngsyr said:

No, you were trying to counter my point that the 2006 elections were legitimate, which 3 recognised independent bodies concluded.

Your relationship with the truth doesn't even extend to your own posts.

Your own post I replied to:

youngsyr said:

That's all well and good, but none of it takes into account that Hamas is a genocidal death cult that has won power legitimately and has the support of the majoirty of its population and has sworn to wipe Israel off the map.

So according to you the election in 2006 was legitimate because you choose to accept one version but not the others that reported it was manipulated through coercion and violence, and that the majority of the population supported hamas whereas only 44% of votes were cast for them. The election was given legitimacy by outside electoral groups because there was an urgent political need to have a result during a time of ongoing violence and Israeli interference. Calling the election void would have led to anarchy.

[youngsyr]

M1AGM said:

youngsyr said:

No, you were trying to counter my point that the 2006 elections were legitimate, which 3 recognised independent bodies concluded.

Your relationship with the truth doesn't even extend to your own posts.

Your own post I replied to:

youngsyr said:

That's all well and good, but none of it takes into account that Hamas is a genocidal death cult that has won power legitimately and has the support of the majoirty of its population and has sworn to wipe Israel off the map.

So according to you the election in 2006 was legitimate because you choose to accept one version but not the others that reported it was manipulated through coercion and violence, and that the majority of the population supported hamas whereas only 44% of votes were cast for them. The election was given legitimacy by outside electoral groups because there was an urgent political need to have a result during a time of ongoing violence and Israeli interference. Calling the election void would have led to anarchy.

No, it was Internationally recognised as legitimate.

That is why I called it legitimate.

[skwdenyer]

fizz47 said:

ICJ has indicated additional provisional measures against Israel today..

The Court observes that, since 26 January 2024, “the catastrophic living conditions of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated further, in particular in view of the prolonged and widespread deprivation of food and other basic necessities to which the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been subjected”, and that “Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine, as noted in the Order of 26 January 2024, but that famine is setting in”.

The Court Ordered:

It reaffirmed the 26 January 2024 measures

in view or worsening conditions including spread of famine and starvation orders the State of Israel:

to take effective measures in cooperation with the UN to provide urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance including food water, electricity, fuel... as well as medical supplies and medical care.

to ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance

to submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order, within one month as from the date of this Order.

I think we should start asking everyone to refer to them as “Gazan Israelis” or somesuch, to remind everybody that Gaza isn’t a sovereign state; it is instead a ghetto of Israel right now.

[youngsyr]

skwdenyer said:

fizz47 said:

ICJ has indicated additional provisional measures against Israel today..

The Court observes that, since 26 January 2024, “the catastrophic living conditions of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated further, in particular in view of the prolonged and widespread deprivation of food and other basic necessities to which the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been subjected”, and that “Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine, as noted in the Order of 26 January 2024, but that famine is setting in”.

The Court Ordered:

It reaffirmed the 26 January 2024 measures

in view or worsening conditions including spread of famine and starvation orders the State of Israel:

to take effective measures in cooperation with the UN to provide urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance including food water, electricity, fuel... as well as medical supplies and medical care.

to ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance

to submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order, within one month as from the date of this Order.

I think we should start asking everyone to refer to them as “Gazan Israelis” or somesuch, to remind everybody that Gaza isn’t a sovereign state; it is instead a ghetto of Israel right now.

Erm Gaza has a closed border with Egypt remember?

So, even if you consider Gaza to be a ghetto itmust be an Egyptian and Israeli ghetto, no?

[JJJ.]

Some individuals defend the indefensible due to cognitive dissonance, where they struggle to accept information that contradicts their existing beliefs.

[skwdenyer]

youngsyr said:

skwdenyer said:

fizz47 said:

ICJ has indicated additional provisional measures against Israel today..

The Court observes that, since 26 January 2024, “the catastrophic living conditions of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have deteriorated further, in particular in view of the prolonged and widespread deprivation of food and other basic necessities to which the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have been subjected”, and that “Palestinians in Gaza are no longer facing only a risk of famine, as noted in the Order of 26 January 2024, but that famine is setting in”.

The Court Ordered:

It reaffirmed the 26 January 2024 measures

in view or worsening conditions including spread of famine and starvation orders the State of Israel:

to take effective measures in cooperation with the UN to provide urgently needed basic services and humanitarian assistance including food water, electricity, fuel... as well as medical supplies and medical care.

to ensure with immediate effect that its military does not commit acts which constitute a violation of any of the rights of the Palestinians in Gaza as a protected group under the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, including by preventing, through any action, the delivery of urgently needed humanitarian assistance

to submit a report to the Court on all measures taken to give effect to this Order, within one month as from the date of this Order.

I think we should start asking everyone to refer to them as “Gazan Israelis” or somesuch, to remind everybody that Gaza isn’t a sovereign state; it is instead a ghetto of Israel right now.

Erm Gaza has a closed border with Egypt remember?

So, even if you consider Gaza to be a ghetto itmust be an Egyptian and Israeli ghetto, no?

Err, no. Gaza remains territory declared by the UN to be a part of a sovereign Palestinian state, under occupation by Israel. It is not a part of Egypt. The Egypt-Gaza border is opened only with the dual agreement of Israel and Egypt; Gazans have no say in the matter.

[julian987R]

JJJ. said:

Some individuals defend the indefensible due to cognitive dissonance, where they struggle to accept information that contradicts their existing beliefs.

Exactly. They just can't stop their adoration of Hamas.
The amount of support for Hamas shown daily on this thread blows my mind.

[911hope]

youngsyr said:

911hope said:

youngsyr said:

Another short memory: it was an invasion. somewhere between 2,000 and 3,000 Hamas fighters entered Israel on 7th October and they didn't "retreat", the IDF claims to have killed 1,000, captured another 200 and the ones that hadn't been killed in stand offs stole the hostages back to their hiding places in civilian buildings such as schools and hospitals.

I find it incredible that posters on here will happily label Israel's invasion of Gaza as genocide whilst simultaneously downplaying the massive terror attack by Hamas as "an incursion" followed quickly by a "retreat".

You guys need to have a word with yourselves.

Can you give an example (quote) of someone who has downplayed the Hamas attack?

I have never seen such a view expressed.

Stand-alone criticism of the IDF response shouldn't be interpreted as such.

How about the post that my reply was posted to?

Nope. There is no denial of the Hamas attack in your example. There is a clear statement that the attack did take place.

Perhaps you are against the use of incursion instead of invasion? This can't be said to denying or downplaying the fact of the attack.

[Mopey]

People saying Israel is responsible for the lack of s two state solution. Didn’t Arafat walk away? So Palestine is responsible when a deal or progress was on the table.

Call me naive but releasing the hostages would go some way to a cease fire happening.

[skwdenyer]

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

Some individuals defend the indefensible due to cognitive dissonance, where they struggle to accept information that contradicts their existing beliefs.

Exactly. They just can't stop their adoration of Hamas.
The amount of support for Hamas shown daily on this thread blows my mind.

Just so we're abundantly clear, I have no support for Hamas. But this isn't a simple, two-sided coin. Not supporting Hamas does not equate supporting Israel. Some seem to find that hard to grasp.

[Electro1980]

julian987R said:

Exactly. They just can't stop their adoration of Hamas.
The amount of support for Hamas shown daily on this thread blows my mind.

Where? Criticising Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas. Show where Hamas has been supported by anyone here.

[Electro1980]

Mopey said:

People saying Israel is responsible for the lack of s two state solution. Didn’t Arafat walk away? So Palestine is responsible when a deal or progress was on the table.

Call me naive but releasing the hostages would go some way to a cease fire happening.

You’re naive. Israel have repeatedly stated their aim is to destroy Hamas. The hostages should absolutely be released, but at the same time there should be an immediate ceasefire. The two need to be simultaneous. As long as they are not this will continue.

However, the main issue is Israel’s killing of civilians and disruption of aid.

[s1962a]

Electro1980 said:

julian987R said:

Exactly. They just can't stop their adoration of Hamas.
The amount of support for Hamas shown daily on this thread blows my mind.

Where? Criticising Israel is not the same as supporting Hamas. Show where Hamas has been supported by anyone here.

This is classic deflection and gas lighting. Holding Israel to account for it's actions is not the same as supporting Hamas.

A UN court orders Israel to allow food and medical supplies in

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68691...

Obviously it's all Hamas's fault, and Israel is doing everything it can to ensure the besieged people of Gaza are getting food and medical supplies. Who they hell are the UN anyway?

Anything else I missed from the talking points?

[andymadmak]

I think it’s important to remember the timelines here.
Some of the people so harshly criticising Israel now were doing exactly so in the days immediately after the attack of the 7th, and before the Israeli invasion of Gaza. People were openly expressing doubts that the atrocities that are now well documented even happened. Some suggested that the IDF actively shot Israeli civilians just to make Hamas look bad.
Now, many people would say now,6 months later and with many civilians killed, that Israel should ow restraint and compassion for the plight of the Palestinians, which is correct imho. BUT that does not put those people in agreement with those who clearly supported Hamas in the immediate aftermath of the attack , even if they were not posting “yay Hamas, way to go! “

[biggbn]

JJJ. said:

Some individuals defend the indefensible due to cognitive dissonance, where they struggle to accept information that contradicts their existing beliefs.

On this, we are in 100% agreement