Thames Water- Finished?
Discussion
S600BSB said:
It really is an embarrassment the way utilities are run in the UK compared to most of the rest of Europe. Sadly we are a bit of a joke.
Blanket statements like "the rest of Europe" aren't very helpful as plenty of other counties have significant issues with state and non-state run infrastructure assets.Take French rural railways, most of the German railway system (nothing like it used to be), Spanish water system, etc. We have issues, but so do many other countries.
The heffalump in the room is that we've built a few million houses and not built the infrastructure to serve them.
This has to some extent put the regulators in a 'no win' situation.
Nobody sane would get involved with owning 'essential UK infrastructure' unless it was a licence to print money, after Railtrack.
I've noticed my water co is keen for its customers to buy shares in it.
It's hard to justify water in Londonshire being so much cheaper than in the Wet Country.
This has to some extent put the regulators in a 'no win' situation.
Nobody sane would get involved with owning 'essential UK infrastructure' unless it was a licence to print money, after Railtrack.
I've noticed my water co is keen for its customers to buy shares in it.
It's hard to justify water in Londonshire being so much cheaper than in the Wet Country.
Condi said:
Bonefish Blues said:
OFWAT has had a Statutory Duty since Day 1 to prevent the payment of dividends if they militated against necessary investment.
The controls are there, but they haven't been enforced. Instead numerous OFWAT senior managers have moved across to the water companies. It's all been terribly cosy, and government hasn't regulated the Regulator
The problem has been that loading the companies with debt wasn't an issue at the time, but built in structural long term problems which were made more acute as interest rates rose and more of the cash coming in had to be paid to finance the debt. Combined with the pressure to improve performance, ie invest in new sewers, treatment plants etc mean that they have little headroom to borrow to invest. The controls are there, but they haven't been enforced. Instead numerous OFWAT senior managers have moved across to the water companies. It's all been terribly cosy, and government hasn't regulated the Regulator
The regulator thought they were regulating a water company, what they actually should have been regulating was the financial slight of hand going on.
For balance the rate of sewage spills is lower now than it was when the companies were nationalised. Part of the reason they were privatised was the investment needed to improve water quality and the government didn't want to undertake that investment itself.
You say sleight of hand, but surely this has all happened in plain sight, and again afaik, the Duty was put in place to manage/prevent exactly this behaviour?
simon_harris said:
we should be demanding repayment of dividends from shareholders. Isn't the point that you get to take money out when times are good - put need to put back in when times are not...
Macquarie is the firm that took all the dividends out, then divested their shareholding in 2017.The owners since 2017 haven't had dividends.
Who do you intend to demand repayment from?
phil4 said:
Lots of calls for re-nationalisation... but think about what that really means.
If it's anything like other things in this country it'll just mean different companies get to rip off the taxpayer/customer and make massive profits.
The government will turn to their approved suppliers list, and sub out all the work to them, who in turn will charge a small fortune to do the work, and we'll pick up the tab one way or another, while their shareholders make a fortune.
I'm not saying we should let them put the prices up. Nope, I'm just saying that I doubt re-nationalistation will acually change anything.
I don't care about renationalisation, the primary cause here is inadequate regulation. Regulation is needed regardless of water being private or state owned, if proper regulation pushes TW into liquidation that's sad; the assets can be run as in the case of LNER until it's decided what policy to follow.If it's anything like other things in this country it'll just mean different companies get to rip off the taxpayer/customer and make massive profits.
The government will turn to their approved suppliers list, and sub out all the work to them, who in turn will charge a small fortune to do the work, and we'll pick up the tab one way or another, while their shareholders make a fortune.
I'm not saying we should let them put the prices up. Nope, I'm just saying that I doubt re-nationalistation will acually change anything.
mikees said:
Google Thames Water and Macquarie. Its the same MO as the Glasers at ManUtd
It's this.They have been allowed to raise debt against their assets, while paying out this money raised to shareholders.
Now is the day of reckoning for these asset stripping actions.
And this is not a unique situation, many companies have gone down this route while interest rates were low, but now have huge interest bills. Servicing this built up debt is one of the big contributors for the last couple of years of inflation.
Bonefish Blues said:
Are there reliable numbers v-a-v 1989 vs 2023 sewage discharges? Serious Q as this is self-measured afaik, and of course Southern was caught as recently as a couple of years ago simply falsifying numbers.
You say sleight of hand, but surely this has all happened in plain sight, and again afaik, the Duty was put in place to manage/prevent exactly this behaviour?
Don't think they are reliable, no, it was said on the radio yesterday only a tiny number of sewage outfalls were monitored prior to about 2010. You say sleight of hand, but surely this has all happened in plain sight, and again afaik, the Duty was put in place to manage/prevent exactly this behaviour?
Biker 1 said:
smifffymoto said:
All infrastructure has been sold off for short term profit previous Governments.
Only now is it coming back to slap the tax payer in the face.
Most people with any common sense could see this scenario from a mile away.
I remember Thatcher's great sell off....Only now is it coming back to slap the tax payer in the face.
Most people with any common sense could see this scenario from a mile away.
Are any of the previously nationalised companies giving Joe Public decent service??
Seasonal Hero said:
Indeed. That is sobering.Seasonal Hero said:
Rather brings it home, doesn't it. The wider point is that discharges are only allowed in exceptional circumstances. Heavy rain seems de facto to be classified as exceptional circumstances, which is b
ks.Take a look at London's discharges though, to see the effect of investment.
Seasonal Hero said:
Not sure of the accuracy of this. The link below is not South Lane in Ash. That road is 0.5 miles from me, Guildford is 7 miles. https://www.sewagemap.co.uk/?PermitNumber=CTCR.200...
LHRFlightman said:
Seasonal Hero said:
Not sure of the accuracy of this. The link below is not South Lane in Ash. That road is 0.5 miles from me, Guildford is 7 miles. https://www.sewagemap.co.uk/?PermitNumber=CTCR.200...
S600BSB said:
Really hope the new Labour government makes tackling the sewage spill crisis a priority. The water companies are an absolute disgrace and the regulatory framework governing the way they operate needs root and branch change. A truly awful example of broken Britain.
The problem is dealing with sewage is the symptom not the cause. TW have had money, they’ve just used it for dividends and bought bonuses rather than investment. Looking at who owns Thames Water (Abu Dhabi / Chinese sovereign wealth funds, Canadian investment companies etc), is there any possible way that these companies can be made to lose/be left holding the bag? In a 'sorry, your investment in Thames Water failed, your money is now gone' kind of way.
Because that seems the right thing to do to me.
Because that seems the right thing to do to me.
DaveCWK said:
Looking at who owns Thames Water (Abu Dhabi / Chinese sovereign wealth funds, Canadian investment companies etc), is there any possible way that these companies can be made to lose/be left holding the bag? In a 'sorry, your investment in Thames Water failed, your money is now gone' kind of way.
Because that seems the right thing to do to me.
Omers really dropped a bBecause that seems the right thing to do to me.
k when the bought in in 2017. I thought they were highly regarded?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff