Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

[bad company]

smn159 said:

bad company said:

They’ll get a lot of votes but very few if any seats. That’s a lot of people to call idiots but perhaps you know that you’re more intelligent than all of them.

Maybe. From what I've seen so far intelligence doesn't seem to figure highly on their criteria for candidates.

From what I’ve seen so far intelligence doesn’t seem to figure highly among Labour voters. Busy finding ways of spending other people’s money. Politics of envy imo.

[Killboy]

bad company said:

Mrr T said:

You do seem to place enormous belief in what people tell you without doing any thinking. Reform promise to cut taxes. To do that there must be spending cuts. They also promise to eliminate NHS waiting lists. This requires a vast amount of money which can only be raised by increasing tax. They are promising you things which by definition are mutually exclusive. Does that not concern you?

That’s the right of parties with no chance of being elected.

Lol.

[Pan Pan Pan]

President Merkin said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

I have not, nor ever contended, that conditions for the working person, have not been significantly improved since WW2....

This schtick also gets quite tiresome.

Pan Pan Pan said:

We have had labour, and tory governments since the last war, and neither have been any good for the working people .

Nuance doesn't really strike me as your thing but I expect you'll shortly be attempting it.

Are you seriously suggesting that labour, have not been as bad as the tories over the past 50 years? What planet have you been on? The only thing tiresome here, is your blind belief that labour will be any better than the tories.

[President Merkin]

bad company said:

From what I’ve seen so far intelligence doesn’t seem to figure highly among Labour voters. Busy finding ways of spending other people’s money. Politics of envy imo.

Whereas of course, Conservative governments spend their own money by some mysterious non tax raising means

For clarity, SMN's post reads like Reform Uk Ltd are taking their supporters for idiots with contradictory policy positions, not people in here commenting, although both may be true, obvs, other than you of course, who just directly labelled Labour voters idiots, Go figure,

Edited by President Merkin on Wednesday 24th April 09:45

[Pan Pan Pan]

tangerine_sedge said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

tangerine_sedge said:

andyA700 said:

tangerine_sedge said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

We have had labour, and tory governments since the last war, and neither have been any good for the working people of the UK.

You must have missed the bit where they set up the Welfare state, massively improved the housing stock, improved working conditions in every industry through various workplace acts, and ensured that everyone was eligible for holidays/sick pay/maternity pay/minimum pay and redundancy conditions and pay.

But other than that, what have the Romans governments done for the working man?

I totally agree with your post, but that was "Old Labour", who were genuinely good and stood up for the poor and the working class. Unfortunately, everything changed for the worse, when Tony Blair (who I voted for) got in. He allied himself to the Neo Conservatives in the US, went along with Bush and co into the debacle which was Iraq, was involved in the MP's expenses scandal in 2008 (his financial records were shredded) and then handed the reins to Gordon Brown, who clearly hated the working class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_parli...

Let's see what new-new-Labour end up being? BTW, I didn't vote for Blair, so it's your fault

Anyway, I posted that response due to PPPs absurd attempt at proclaiming "they're all the same" (obviously to imply that Reform will be different), when it's clear that conditions for the working person have significantly improved since WW2.

I have not, nor ever contended, that conditions for the working person, have not been significantly improved since WW2.
However since the tories have been in office, for longer than labour, since WW2, this must largely be down to tory administrations.
The truly absurd, is you believing that labour will be A: better than the tories, and B: better than new/old/new labour etc.
You really have got a bad case of totally red tinted, blinkered tribalitis, if you believe that `This' time labour will be better. That is exactly the same as thinking that `next' time it is the tories who will be better. Not to mention insanity, since the true sign of insanity, is doing the same thing, over and over again, yet somehow expecting a different result, which is `exactly' what you are doing.

Never said it? I've put your own words in bold to help you out.

Anyway, it's hardly tribalitis when I've voted for 2 different parties in GEs (Tory & Libdems) and only ever voted Labour once (in the last local election). I certainly don't think Labour will solve all our ills, but Reform are not a serious party and seems to be full of racists.

Like I said I know almost nothing about Reform but it seems you are sh*tting yourself, that they might pick up a few votes in the next GE? Or did you perhaps believe, that anyone who doesn't vote tory at the next GE, should switch their vote to labour?

[Pan Pan Pan]

cheesejunkie said:

Pan Pan Pan has views. Many I disagree with.

I'll say one thing about Reform UK and leave it there. I used to live in Northern Ireland. They've a party pact with (in my opinion) one of the most bigoted parties there. I wouldn't vote for them if they begged me to. I've seen their true colours.

On policy, they're offering nothing.

On party, they're not even a party, they're a private enterprise with shareholders.

On reality their desire to destroy the tories is something I'll not prevent them from doing but I don't fancy their chances.

The tories still being in power when most of the country doesn't want them is the symptom of all that's wrong. Reform offering competition isn't. They're scum but they're not the problem.

You have views many of which I disagree with. That is the nature of having choice in the UK. Your use of the word scum however shows that you are a bigot.

[President Merkin]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Are you seriously suggesting that labour, have not been as bad as the tories over the past 50 years? What planet have you been on? The only thing tiresome here, is your blind belief that labour will be any better than the tories.

No, you are, It's literally all you ever do,

[Pan Pan Pan]

President Merkin said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Are you seriously suggesting that labour, have not been as bad as the tories over the past 50 years? What planet have you been on? The only thing tiresome here, is your blind belief that labour will be any better than the tories.

No, you are, It's literally all you ever do,

Then let's Lets play a game of pat-a-cake, and see who wins. it seem to be where this topic has got down to.

[bad company]

President Merkin said:

bad company said:

From what I’ve seen so far intelligence doesn’t seem to figure highly among Labour voters. Busy finding ways of spending other people’s money. Politics of envy imo.

Whereas of course, Conservative governments spend their own money by some mysterious non tax raising means

For clarity, SMN's post reads like Reform Uk Ltd are taking their supporters for idiots with contradictory policy positions, not people in here commenting, although both may be true, obvs, other than you of course, who just directly labelled Labour voters idiots, Go figure,

Edited by President Merkin on Wednesday 24th April 09:45

The Conservative Party has traditionally been low tax, low spending. That’s no longer the case and I cannot forgive the exorbitant amount of money wasted by BoJo & Co., on Covid & lockdown etc. I’ll be voting Reform as best of a bad choice imo.

[President Merkin]

All of which may be true but doesn't distract from your assertion that one side spends other people's money & one doesn't, which is a factual nonsense. All governments raise revenue (I can't believe I'm actaully typing this out) through taxation. That would include Reform & so your stated basis for choosing one party over another is entirely fatuous,

I don't care how you vote, I'm merely pointing out your reasons for doing so make no sense,

[tangerine_sedge]

Pan Pan Pan said:

Like I said I know almost nothing about Reform but it seems you are sh*tting yourself, that they might pick up a few votes in the next GE? Or did you perhaps believe, that anyone who doesn't vote tory at the next GE, should switch their vote to labour?

I'm going to regret re-engaging with you, but here goes :

First, don't do yourself a diservice (re: the bold bit above). There's lots of things you know almost nothing about.not just reform

Also, if you know so little about reform why are you on this thread defending them?

Anyway, onto the meat of the response...

I am not stting myself that reform will pick up some votes, I'm just amazed that such vocal supporters are highly critical of every other single party, but have a massive blind spot in relation to reform.

The reform proposals (I won't call them a manifesto), are totally uncosted, unplanned, thin, barely thought through slogans. They are clearly targetted at voters who are swayed by nebulous emotional arguments and who are not going to critically enagage their brain to ask fairly basic questions about how they might be achieved, and what the actual impact is likely to be.

As pointed out upthread, reform doesn't have to actually do the difficult bit as they know they'll never have any power, they just want to sit on the sidelines trying to nudge a weak Tory party, whilst profits of their Limited Company increase. Double-gins all around - chin chin!

[S600BSB]

bad company said:

smn159 said:

bad company said:

Mrr T said:

You do seem to place enormous belief in what people tell you without doing any thinking. Reform promise to cut taxes. To do that there must be spending cuts. They also promise to eliminate NHS waiting lists. This requires a vast amount of money which can only be raised by increasing tax. They are promising you things which by definition are mutually exclusive. Does that not concern you?

That’s the right of parties with no chance of being elected.

To assume that their supporters are idiots?

They’ll get a lot of votes but very few if any seats. That’s a lot of people to call idiots but perhaps you know that you’re more intelligent than all of them.

Hopefully they will get 10-15% of votes. fk the Cons and zero MPs.

[crankedup5]

bad company said:

Mrr T said:

You do seem to place enormous belief in what people tell you without doing any thinking. Reform promise to cut taxes. To do that there must be spending cuts. They also promise to eliminate NHS waiting lists. This requires a vast amount of money which can only be raised by increasing tax. They are promising you things which by definition are mutually exclusive. Does that not concern you?

That’s the right of parties with no chance of being elected.

Spot on!
The Party will be looking to harvest a good % of votes this time around that can be built upon for the future.

[bad company]

President Merkin said:

All of which may be true but doesn't distract from your assertion that one side spends other people's money & one doesn't, which is a factual nonsense. All governments raise revenue (I can't believe I'm actaully typing this out) through taxation. That would include Reform & so your stated basis for choosing one party over another is entirely fatuous,

I don't care how you vote, I'm merely pointing out your reasons for doing so make no sense,

I said ‘ The Conservative Party has traditionally been low tax’.

Obviously any government spends taxpayers money, the debates are about how much to tax and spend.

The factual nonsense is your post.

Edited by bad company on Wednesday 24th April 10:34

[crankedup5]

What is the point of voting for Labour, their track record indicates uselessness in every direction over the past 50 years. Vote Labour when they op tell the Country not to expect any change of a positive direction. Starmer continues to ‘flip flop’ unable to make up his mind, terrified of his own decisions

[Dagnir]

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mr Anderson is but one person in Reform U.K. For a balanced view you need to look at the Party policy proposals. It is that which I base my opinion of ‘change’ on.
I. believe that the Party will mature and become more credible to a wider selection of the electorate over a period of a couple of Parliaments becoming the third Party of choice.
‘Fruit loops’ have been a feature in every political party for decades, it’s just that those in ones chosen favoured Party is forgiven and brushed under the carpet.

You do seem to place enormous belief in what people tell you without doing any thinking. Reform promise to cut taxes. To do that there must be spending cuts. They also promise to eliminate NHS waiting lists. This requires a vast amount of money which can only be raised by increasing tax. They are promising you things which by definition are mutually exclusive. Does that not concern you?

You're looking at it from one perspective only.

If we stop spending money where we shouldn't be spending it, the cuts can be made up in other ways, plus spending money isn't the only way to reduce NHS waiting lists.


Not all the problems of this country are caused/fixed with out and out spending.

You're thinking like a tory

[cheesejunkie]

Pan Pan Pan said:

You have views many of which I disagree with. That is the nature of having choice in the UK. Your use of the word scum however shows that you are a bigot.

I’m a bigot? ps off.

What I’m not is insulting to people when I don’t have to be. Insulting that party, I’ll take the slings and arrows for doing so. They are taking advantage without providing solutions. I don’t consider that a viable alternative. But I’ll look at those defending them with more critical eyes than you are.

[cheesejunkie]

crankedup5 said:

What is the point of voting for Labour, their track record indicates uselessness in every direction over the past 50 years. Vote Labour when they op tell the Country not to expect any change of a positive direction. Starmer continues to ‘flip flop’ unable to make up his mind, terrified of his own decisions

You do realise that the tories have been in power for most of those 50 years. If you want to hunt down fkups understand your prey’s footprints.

[bad company]

crankedup5 said:

What is the point of voting for Labour, their track record indicates uselessness in every direction over the past 50 years. Vote Labour when they op tell the Country not to expect any change of a positive direction. Starmer continues to ‘flip flop’ unable to make up his mind, terrified of his own decisions

Couldn’t agree more. Labour wanted us to elect Corbyn and Diane Abbott, both utterly useless imo.

Trouble is the current Conservative government don’t seem much better, I speak as a lifelong Tory voter and former party member. BoJo was a disaster imo.

[Mrr T]

bad company said:

Mrr T said:

bad company said:

President Merkin said:

Er.... Reform's policy position is net zero immigration. You're not seriously contemplating voting for a party whose policy documents you haven't bothered to read are you?

Clear enough:-

https://www.reformparty.uk/immigration

Just a quote from the page on those entering by boat from France.

"Pick up Migrants out of Boats and Take Back to France. (We are legally allowed to do this under international treaties)."

Not sure Reform have read the international treaties. Before a certain poster post a links to France accepting back Albanians he need to understand Albanians have a legal right to be in France for up to 90 days.

Looks like a bit of a grey area of law:-

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/is-turning-ba...

Serious question did you read the link.

Pushback from a countries territorial waters into international waters or in international waters maybe legal, if it can be carried out safely. As the link makes clear there is no international waters between UK and French territorial waters where most of the crossing take place.