Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
Wombat3 said:
Dave200 said:
The backlog of applications has grown from 4,000 to almost 150,000 since the Tories took power. Yet actual asylum claims per year are barely any higher now than they were 20 years ago. All they've done to try and solve it, in the loosest sense of the word, is to put people in hotels and throw money at this Rwanda nonsense. Systematic underinvestment in the processing system has destroyed it, making the UK an easy target for people with spurious claims and holding up valid applications. If we had a working system, that processed valid claims in the same way that France and Germany do, then the number of people on boats would drop overnight. France targets to resolve asylum claims in 6 months, and is pretty successful. The average processing time in the UK is closer to 2 years. But again, this doesn't fit a right wing narrative.
All well and good, but how you are supposed to process people when you don't even know who they are, where they have come from and why they left there in the first place? (because they have, mostly purposefully, turned up without any paperwork.)
You can't just grant asylum to anyone that turns up without papers and neither can you refuse it because they might be genuine refugees.
I've never seen a credible answer to how you deal with that quickly and efficiently short of making some pretty arbitrary decisions.
If you are going to investigate every case to try & get the answers then its bound to take time.
Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
Wombat3 said:
Dave200 said:
The backlog of applications has grown from 4,000 to almost 150,000 since the Tories took power. Yet actual asylum claims per year are barely any higher now than they were 20 years ago. All they've done to try and solve it, in the loosest sense of the word, is to put people in hotels and throw money at this Rwanda nonsense. Systematic underinvestment in the processing system has destroyed it, making the UK an easy target for people with spurious claims and holding up valid applications. If we had a working system, that processed valid claims in the same way that France and Germany do, then the number of people on boats would drop overnight. France targets to resolve asylum claims in 6 months, and is pretty successful. The average processing time in the UK is closer to 2 years. But again, this doesn't fit a right wing narrative.
All well and good, but how you are supposed to process people when you don't even know who they are, where they have come from and why they left there in the first place? (because they have, mostly purposefully, turned up without any paperwork.)
You can't just grant asylum to anyone that turns up without papers and neither can you refuse it because they might be genuine refugees.
I've never seen a credible answer to how you deal with that quickly and efficiently short of making some pretty arbitrary decisions.
If you are going to investigate every case to try & get the answers then its bound to take time.
Dave200 said:
Wombat3 said:
Dave200 said:
The backlog of applications has grown from 4,000 to almost 150,000 since the Tories took power. Yet actual asylum claims per year are barely any higher now than they were 20 years ago. All they've done to try and solve it, in the loosest sense of the word, is to put people in hotels and throw money at this Rwanda nonsense. Systematic underinvestment in the processing system has destroyed it, making the UK an easy target for people with spurious claims and holding up valid applications. If we had a working system, that processed valid claims in the same way that France and Germany do, then the number of people on boats would drop overnight. France targets to resolve asylum claims in 6 months, and is pretty successful. The average processing time in the UK is closer to 2 years. But again, this doesn't fit a right wing narrative.
All well and good, but how you are supposed to process people when you don't even know who they are, where they have come from and why they left there in the first place? (because they have, mostly purposefully, turned up without any paperwork.)
You can't just grant asylum to anyone that turns up without papers and neither can you refuse it because they might be genuine refugees.
I've never seen a credible answer to how you deal with that quickly and efficiently short of making some pretty arbitrary decisions.
If you are going to investigate every case to try & get the answers then its bound to take time.
Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
And yet the Country cannot support that level of asylum seekers due to inadequate infrastructure.
Although the Home Office has secured 16,000 rental homes ready for use. Just need to catch up with other services provisions. Have you tried to get a medical services appointment lately.
JagLover said:
The number of caseworkers has not gone down. It was 380 in 2011/12 and 614 in the latest year figures are available. Procedures may have changed and it may be harder to process claims made, but it seems a myth that the system is being deliberately underfunded.
In which case, you're going to have to eplain how we've ended up with the most stupid asylum system imaginable, paying millions per day for people to be stuck in hotels forever. Presumably if the processing being dismantled is a myth, then this wouldn't be a measurable thing. Except it is.Jordie Barretts sock said:
As a matter of personal interest, those of you for and against Reform, why do you think so many migrants risk their lives to cross the channel?
Following a long tortuous hike across hostile lands followed by the promise made by people traffickers of sunny uplands in U.K. just across a stretch of water, look you can see the U.K. Perhaps these people do not see the risk to life as very high. The promise of work and a good life perhaps is a sales patter in return of a few thousand euro. Must be alluring as the numbers are rising year on year.crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
Wombat3 said:
Dave200 said:
The backlog of applications has grown from 4,000 to almost 150,000 since the Tories took power. Yet actual asylum claims per year are barely any higher now than they were 20 years ago. All they've done to try and solve it, in the loosest sense of the word, is to put people in hotels and throw money at this Rwanda nonsense. Systematic underinvestment in the processing system has destroyed it, making the UK an easy target for people with spurious claims and holding up valid applications. If we had a working system, that processed valid claims in the same way that France and Germany do, then the number of people on boats would drop overnight. France targets to resolve asylum claims in 6 months, and is pretty successful. The average processing time in the UK is closer to 2 years. But again, this doesn't fit a right wing narrative.
All well and good, but how you are supposed to process people when you don't even know who they are, where they have come from and why they left there in the first place? (because they have, mostly purposefully, turned up without any paperwork.)
You can't just grant asylum to anyone that turns up without papers and neither can you refuse it because they might be genuine refugees.
I've never seen a credible answer to how you deal with that quickly and efficiently short of making some pretty arbitrary decisions.
If you are going to investigate every case to try & get the answers then its bound to take time.
Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
And yet the Country cannot support that level of asylum seekers due to inadequate infrastructure.
Although the Home Office has secured 16,000 rental homes ready for use. Just need to catch up with other services provisions. Have you tried to get a medical services appointment lately.
Dave200 said:
I'd probably consider asking France and Germany, as they seem capable of processing applications much faster than the UK.
Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
Do you think the process / burden of proof etc is being applied in the same way?Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
We know the Germans just opened the doors (and that didn't end well). Meanwhile Macron was trying to pass a new bill to facilitate deportations (possibly bypassing the ECHR) .
According to https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68103950 the French deported 17,000 people last year. I doubt we got anywhere near that. (I found a figure of about 5500 for "enforced returns in 2023)
All is not roses across the water.
Who'd be surprised that under it all we are actually one of the few countries playing by the rules and doing what we are supposed to be doing
Jordie Barretts sock said:
As a matter of personal interest, those of you for and against Reform, why do you think so many migrants risk their lives to cross the channel?
1) The UK only handles between 5 and 7% of the total of asylum applications received in Europe - contrary to the view often given by Reform and its ilk, there is not a long conga-line of people starting at the Bosphorus and winding through Europe to Calais as the population of the Levant tries to get to sceptred Albion. Germany receives between a quarter and a half of all applications. France and Spain between 15-20%, Greece about 8%. So the idea that the UK is the preferred destination of migrants and asylum seekers because we are a 'soft touch' is risible. 2) Unsurprisingly, most asylum seekers - under no legal obligation to claim in the first safe country - choose their destination by a combination of familiarity, language and existing communities. This is usually the former imperial metropole, so people from Francophone Africa want to settle in France, those from Turkey or the northern Levant head for Germany and those from Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India (the top origin countries of UK asylum seekers at the moment) head for the UK - the place with historical (and in some cases not-so historical) presence in their country, a common language and established communities of their own culture and nationality. You do not, as a rule, get Libyans, Congolese, Guineans, Haitians and Syrians claiming asylum in the UK - they are prominent in the French asylum claim numbers, though.
Dave200 said:
swisstoni said:
Dave200 said:
turbobloke said:
Mrr T said:
Dagnir said:
oyster said:
It’s morally wrong to steal. It’s not morally wrong to migrate.
Are you suggesting we remove laws relating to immigration so it’s perfectly legal to come and go as one pleases?
It's morally wrong to break into a country to bypass being processed properly because you know you don't have a valid reason for entry.Are you suggesting we remove laws relating to immigration so it’s perfectly legal to come and go as one pleases?
People pretty much can come and go as they please...migration was over 1.1m last year.
https://www.sra.org.uk/sra/news/press/2023-press-r...
It's been asked before, as to why the boats are there at all when France is a developed western country. Is there a (nonsensical) view that the boat people all have relatives here?. The reason is obvious, we have more bleedin' heart gullible types ripe to be conned, in positions of influence and on social media, and are seen that way outside as well as inside the country.
Edited by Dave200 on Thursday 25th April 08:31
a) Stop in a country where the system is efficient, and your application was likely to be processed in less than 6 months
or
b) Travel on to a country where your application will typically take around 2 years, during which time you'll be housed for free?
Not a hard one to understand, is it?
It wasn’t long ago the left would hear nothing of this.
These people were all desperate refugees from warzones or persecution and anyone who said otherwise was a nazi.
swisstoni said:
No it isn’t. It’s what people you would probably happily call racists have been saying for years.
It wasn’t long ago the left would hear nothing of this.
These people were all desperate refugees from warzones or persecution and anyone who said otherwise was a nazi.
No. Those racists have been busy banging on about how we're a soft touch, and how we'll give a home and income to anyone who turns up on these shores regardless of status. That's not the same as saying that the system has been comprehensively broken by an incompetent government, resulting in the need to house hundreds of thousands of people while we process the backlog created by the system failure. Why weren't we seeing the same uproar about these people arriving 20 years ago when we took the same number of applications? Because then it wasn't politically prudent for right-wing agitators to spin it as a problem with the arrivals themselves rather than the system that processes them.It wasn’t long ago the left would hear nothing of this.
These people were all desperate refugees from warzones or persecution and anyone who said otherwise was a nazi.
Dave200 said:
No. Those racists have been busy banging on about how we're a soft touch, and how we'll give a home and income to anyone who turns up on these shores regardless of status. That's not the same as saying that the system has been comprehensively broken by an incompetent government, resulting in the need to house hundreds of thousands of people while we process the backlog created by the system failure. Why weren't we seeing the same uproar about these people arriving 20 years ago when we took the same number of applications? Because then it wasn't politically prudent for right-wing agitators to spin it as a problem with the arrivals themselves rather than the system that processes them.
How about 14 years ago? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/apr/28/g...Stop with the gaslighting.
Dave200 said:
swisstoni said:
No it isn’t. It’s what people you would probably happily call racists have been saying for years.
It wasn’t long ago the left would hear nothing of this.
These people were all desperate refugees from warzones or persecution and anyone who said otherwise was a nazi.
No. Those racists have been busy banging on about how we're a soft touch, and how we'll give a home and income to anyone who turns up on these shores regardless of status. That's not the same as saying that the system has been comprehensively broken by an incompetent government, resulting in the need to house hundreds of thousands of people while we process the backlog created by the system failure. Why weren't we seeing the same uproar about these people arriving 20 years ago when we took the same number of applications? Because then it wasn't politically prudent for right-wing agitators to spin it as a problem with the arrivals themselves rather than the system that processes them.It wasn’t long ago the left would hear nothing of this.
These people were all desperate refugees from warzones or persecution and anyone who said otherwise was a nazi.
It’s how the right wing is doing in the polls.
Otherwise, well done.
swisstoni said:
One problem with the theory that this mess is all manufactured for the benefit of the right wing.
It’s how the right wing is doing in the polls.
Otherwise, well done.
Well yesIt’s how the right wing is doing in the polls.
Otherwise, well done.
One reason for the collapse of the Tory vote is their failure to deal with illegal migration. Keeping it going for "popularity reasons" doesn't seem a winning strategy. Latest poll has Tories at 20%.
Mrr T said:
The UK has agreed its neither morally wrong or illegal to enter and claim asylum if you are entitled to it.
The UK has also agreed to prostrate itself to the entire world and let 1.1M people in last year.I don't trust the UK, its goals or its motives.....they certainly aren't acting for the benefit of the British.
JagLover said:
Well yes
One reason for the collapse of the Tory vote is their failure to deal with illegal migration. Keeping it going for "popularity reasons" doesn't seem a winning strategy. Latest poll has Tories at 20%.
They made it an issue and invited the public to judge them on their performance on it because they thought it was something they could be seen to fix. Catastrophically wrongly.One reason for the collapse of the Tory vote is their failure to deal with illegal migration. Keeping it going for "popularity reasons" doesn't seem a winning strategy. Latest poll has Tories at 20%.
cheesejunkie said:
turbobloke said:
That doesn't address what was posted, which said nothing about valid asylum cases as it mentioned "no valid reason for entry". Getting here by any means then playing the handwringers and lawyers in need of a new supercar by gaming the system - including finding a solicitor to create fictional back stories / sob stories - isn't valid.
https://www.sra.org.uk/sra/news/press/2023-press-r...
It's been asked before, as to why the boats are there at all when France is a developed western country. Is there a (nonsensical) view that the boat people all have relatives here?. The reason is obvious, we have more bleedin' heart gullible types ripe to be conned, in positions of influence and on social media, and are seen that way outside as well as inside the country.
Because they don't want to live in France and many have valid reasons for having that opinion. There's a lot of crap talked about how they should stop in the first available safe country. It's crap.https://www.sra.org.uk/sra/news/press/2023-press-r...
It's been asked before, as to why the boats are there at all when France is a developed western country. Is there a (nonsensical) view that the boat people all have relatives here?. The reason is obvious, we have more bleedin' heart gullible types ripe to be conned, in positions of influence and on social media, and are seen that way outside as well as inside the country.
Give them an easier access option. Properly fund the teams evaluating their applications including the ability to say no.
Don't sit and b
h about immigrants whilst supporting the system that results in small boats.We have zero obligation to anyone other than British citizens. No other person has the right to live here and they certainly don't have the right simply because they don't like the French.
What nonsense...
Dagnir said:
Mrr T said:
The UK has agreed its neither morally wrong or illegal to enter and claim asylum if you are entitled to it.
The UK has also agreed to prostrate itself to the entire world and let 1.1M people in last year.I don't trust the UK, its goals or its motives.....they certainly aren't acting for the benefit of the British.
Dave200 said:
crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
Wombat3 said:
Dave200 said:
The backlog of applications has grown from 4,000 to almost 150,000 since the Tories took power. Yet actual asylum claims per year are barely any higher now than they were 20 years ago. All they've done to try and solve it, in the loosest sense of the word, is to put people in hotels and throw money at this Rwanda nonsense. Systematic underinvestment in the processing system has destroyed it, making the UK an easy target for people with spurious claims and holding up valid applications. If we had a working system, that processed valid claims in the same way that France and Germany do, then the number of people on boats would drop overnight. France targets to resolve asylum claims in 6 months, and is pretty successful. The average processing time in the UK is closer to 2 years. But again, this doesn't fit a right wing narrative.
All well and good, but how you are supposed to process people when you don't even know who they are, where they have come from and why they left there in the first place? (because they have, mostly purposefully, turned up without any paperwork.)
You can't just grant asylum to anyone that turns up without papers and neither can you refuse it because they might be genuine refugees.
I've never seen a credible answer to how you deal with that quickly and efficiently short of making some pretty arbitrary decisions.
If you are going to investigate every case to try & get the answers then its bound to take time.
Either way, the Reform gang have classically forced us down a dead end here. There were less than 50,000 asylum seekers allowed to stay in the UK in 2023, which is less than 1% of the population and a drop in the ocean. It's a moot point that only exists for political posturing.
And yet the Country cannot support that level of asylum seekers due to inadequate infrastructure.
Although the Home Office has secured 16,000 rental homes ready for use. Just need to catch up with other services provisions. Have you tried to get a medical services appointment lately.
When Labour begin Governing the Country they intend to fast track the back log of asylum seekers, they haven’t yet mentioned where these people or how these people will be housed.
My axe grind is the Home Office providing houses, as I mentioned 16,000 homes set aside, when the indigenous population complain of not being able to afford a home. Something gone wrong.
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