Children not school ready
Discussion
Yep - my cousin's wife was head mistress of a well rated village primary in a shire. She quit (after having improved the school to the point where it was driving up house prices) because post-covid, the toxic mix of unsocialised kids, and parents who seem to have decided that schooling should be at their convenience was too much to be bothered with.
Cue lots of hand wringing in the local community (about her resigning), but no self awareness of what made her walk away.
Cue lots of hand wringing in the local community (about her resigning), but no self awareness of what made her walk away.
Murph7355 said:
You'd think not.
But then bugger all is being done about it -no support for teachers to sanction bad parenting, bugger all desire to do anything about it by some in the profession (it doesn't all need explicit govt support) and seemingly increasing numbers of parents who can't be arsed.
"Both parents working" is an excuse. And whilst I agree there are issues with the breakdown of the family unit, where education is concerned, that's an excuse too.
Parenting is f
king hard work. But it's fully the parents' responsibility.
Absolutely it needs to come from government. It's too late by the time kids have got to school and it becomes a firefighting exercise. But then bugger all is being done about it -no support for teachers to sanction bad parenting, bugger all desire to do anything about it by some in the profession (it doesn't all need explicit govt support) and seemingly increasing numbers of parents who can't be arsed.
"Both parents working" is an excuse. And whilst I agree there are issues with the breakdown of the family unit, where education is concerned, that's an excuse too.
Parenting is f
king hard work. But it's fully the parents' responsibility. I have Finnish nephews and nieces. Apparently they're supposed to be top tier.
Admittedly they aren't stupid. But they're children and just as dumb as any children.
Ok, they can speak multiple languages and I can't. But can they remove the exhaust from a car that has fallen apart on the motorway. No.
Ha dumb Finnish kids!
I'm obviously joking, love them to bits, and am well aware of the educational differences. Brother in law teaches in Finland. Brother teaches in Japan. I'd never want that job in this country. Other countries respect it more.
Admittedly they aren't stupid. But they're children and just as dumb as any children.
Ok, they can speak multiple languages and I can't. But can they remove the exhaust from a car that has fallen apart on the motorway. No.
Ha dumb Finnish kids!
I'm obviously joking, love them to bits, and am well aware of the educational differences. Brother in law teaches in Finland. Brother teaches in Japan. I'd never want that job in this country. Other countries respect it more.
BikeBikeBIke said:
I'm pretty close to this issue in two different ways, children of working parents are not the problem here.
My wife works in a number of primary schools in good area and you are wrong (although not 100%)Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 08:41
Many kids cannot use the toilet, eat with knives and forks, etc, but there it's not exclusively: working parents, single parents, non-english, etc. It is a complete mix of backgrounds and family set-ups.
Outsourcing is always a dirty word in the UK however many many parents are happy to outsource all responsibility for their children (and themselves) to the state - "free" education, "free" meals, "free" care etc etc. The mentality to lean on the state is a real problem in this country with such a massively bloated welfare system.
Add to that the treating everyone as a victim of something, usually some form of "xxx shaming" giving them the excuse to be a victim and demand services and funding,
Re religion, I agree to a point despite being very unreligious myself. I think one of the worse changes made in this country was scrapping of sunday trading laws. It means that many families, mostly on lower incomes are 7 day workers so quite often there is no week day the family is all together. Before, Sundays were family days, yes sometimes boring etc but it gave parents that day where they weren't milling around shopping centres, doing shopping or indeed working.
Germany still has sunday trading laws and it is great, parks are full with families and people enjoy their sundays.
Add to that the treating everyone as a victim of something, usually some form of "xxx shaming" giving them the excuse to be a victim and demand services and funding,
Re religion, I agree to a point despite being very unreligious myself. I think one of the worse changes made in this country was scrapping of sunday trading laws. It means that many families, mostly on lower incomes are 7 day workers so quite often there is no week day the family is all together. Before, Sundays were family days, yes sometimes boring etc but it gave parents that day where they weren't milling around shopping centres, doing shopping or indeed working.
Germany still has sunday trading laws and it is great, parks are full with families and people enjoy their sundays.
My wife works in secondary education and the stuff she says does make you think that other families have very different standards.
But, to be honest, a lot of it is that some people are just lazy, not very intelligent and wholly focussed on their own short term gratification.
Some parents are super on it but the kids for whatever reason arent, throw in autism and ADHD etc and that complicates it.
Deprivation is a big part, some kids even in the fairly prosperous area have no food in the house, or get sent to school with a packet of biscuits.
Trouble is the only qualification to breed is two sets working genitalia, qualifying as a parent is the difficult bit.
But, to be honest, a lot of it is that some people are just lazy, not very intelligent and wholly focussed on their own short term gratification.
Some parents are super on it but the kids for whatever reason arent, throw in autism and ADHD etc and that complicates it.
Deprivation is a big part, some kids even in the fairly prosperous area have no food in the house, or get sent to school with a packet of biscuits.
Trouble is the only qualification to breed is two sets working genitalia, qualifying as a parent is the difficult bit.
J4CKO said:
Trouble is the only qualification to breed is two sets working genitalia, qualifying as a parent is the difficult bit.
This.Darwin used to sort this problem out. If you couldn't nurture a child the child didn't survive to breed. We've pretty much reversed that. If you can't function in society breeding is your best path to an income and a house and your offspring also won't function in society.
I don't have a solution to that problem.
I wondered why the OP didn't post a link to the report, and from its scope and its self-reporting by parents and teachers I would suggest the percentages are bullst.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-dep...
Doesn't mean there aren't issues in schools but this isn't a scientifically researched study done in the classroom by independent observers.
t.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-dep...
Doesn't mean there aren't issues in schools but this isn't a scientifically researched study done in the classroom by independent observers.
ScotHill said:
I wondered why the OP didn't post a link to the report, and from its scope and its self-reporting by parents and teachers I would suggest the percentages are bullst.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-dep...
Doesn't mean there aren't issues in schools but this isn't a scientifically researched study done in the classroom by independent observers.
You're right. It's a crap poll and the headline is misleading:t.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/teachers-dep...
Doesn't mean there aren't issues in schools but this isn't a scientifically researched study done in the classroom by independent observers.
"The online survey of parents, carried out in October 2023, suggests that 50% of parents think some of the responsibility for toilet training lies elsewhere – including with schools."
Well yes. Toilet training is highly likely to be shared amongst all sorts of people. Nursery, grandparents, a childminder. 'Including with schools' is tagged on and unquantified.
And as for 'getting dressed' that's nothing new. Kids have always struggled with difficult buttons or shoe laces when they move onto laced shoes. Without more detail it means nothing.
There are major problems with kids in primary school that didn't exist 30 years ago but I'm not sure that poll is providing any insight on that at all.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 09:45
cheesejunkie said:
I have Finnish nephews and nieces. Apparently they're supposed to be top tier.
Admittedly they aren't stupid. But they're children and just as dumb as any children.
Ok, they can speak multiple languages and I can't. But can they remove the exhaust from a car that has fallen apart on the motorway. No.
Ha dumb Finnish kids!
I'm obviously joking, love them to bits, and am well aware of the educational differences. Brother in law teaches in Finland. Brother teaches in Japan. I'd never want that job in this country. Other countries respect it more.
I actually believe that is part of our wider societal issue. Respect is earned but we don't respect people who should have earned it through provision of the service we have asked for.Admittedly they aren't stupid. But they're children and just as dumb as any children.
Ok, they can speak multiple languages and I can't. But can they remove the exhaust from a car that has fallen apart on the motorway. No.
Ha dumb Finnish kids!
I'm obviously joking, love them to bits, and am well aware of the educational differences. Brother in law teaches in Finland. Brother teaches in Japan. I'd never want that job in this country. Other countries respect it more.
So in the UK we are rude to staff at checkouts (they have done what we expect why are we rude)
We are rude to waiters and waitresses even though they bring our food check it's ok (poor service exists but it's not the norm)
We are rude to Hospital and Dr staff because we have to wait while others are seen before us (not considering our fall when drinking is less urgent than the person having a heart attack).
And finally we are rude to teachers because they expect our kids to engage and well it's there job to get them engaged not ours.
While not true of everyone it is common to observe in our society and its a shame
My ex's 7 y.o. brat was a perfect example of bad parenting- couldn't use a knife & fork, drank from a baby's teat cup, zero attention span or interest other than pokemon.
I tried with him for a while but she undermined every attempt as she thought it too authoritarian; he may eat with his fingers if he wants, the teat bottle is convenient & comfortable for him, he had express permission to disobey anything not asked in a 'pretty-please' manner, etc.
Mummy wanting to be his best friend will lead to a total lack of development and there's probably many more out there just like him.
I tried with him for a while but she undermined every attempt as she thought it too authoritarian; he may eat with his fingers if he wants, the teat bottle is convenient & comfortable for him, he had express permission to disobey anything not asked in a 'pretty-please' manner, etc.
Mummy wanting to be his best friend will lead to a total lack of development and there's probably many more out there just like him.
BikeBikeBIke said:
J4CKO said:
Trouble is the only qualification to breed is two sets working genitalia, qualifying as a parent is the difficult bit.
This.Darwin used to sort this problem out. If you couldn't nurture a child the child didn't survive to breed. We've pretty much reversed that. If you can't function in society breeding is your best path to an income and a house and your offspring also won't function in society.
I don't have a solution to that problem.
It does seem to be like reverse evolution to an extent, or at least contrary to the "survival of the fittest" concept, but as humans with empathy and whatever, and not being keen on just eating the demics like some species, we can manage to look after a certain percentage but it does seem like that has got a little bit too far the other way.
Talking about kids last week with my wife.
Seems to be a correlation between access to phones/tablets/game systems and bad teeth.
This from the two classes of 6 year olds at school and other kids we know.
When at house of a friend their kid (6) is always on a gaming system; has some black teeth.
Another dad says often to me ‘i know I should keep Charlie of his tablet but…’ kid (6) some teeth removed at age 4(?).
We came up with 3 or 4 others.
Other parents that when you ask what are you and son/daughter doing this weekend, if it’s horse riding, water park, fishing, cycling, skateboard, surfing etc then they all have good teeth.
Not exactly a scientific study…..
Seems to be a correlation between access to phones/tablets/game systems and bad teeth.
This from the two classes of 6 year olds at school and other kids we know.
When at house of a friend their kid (6) is always on a gaming system; has some black teeth.
Another dad says often to me ‘i know I should keep Charlie of his tablet but…’ kid (6) some teeth removed at age 4(?).
We came up with 3 or 4 others.
Other parents that when you ask what are you and son/daughter doing this weekend, if it’s horse riding, water park, fishing, cycling, skateboard, surfing etc then they all have good teeth.
Not exactly a scientific study…..
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.I'm pretty close to this issue in two different ways, children of working parents are not the problem here.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 08:41
We have had examples individually of children being left to entertain themselves in office car parks while the parents worked. We have the children of extremely professional parents that social services have been involved in.
It's fantastic you don't see the problems-sometimes we wish we didn't.
But there are huge numbers of problem families in every school (obviously I can't prove that to you but it is the case in every school into which we have come into contact with). Yes we have had children with multiple £10ks of drugs found in their possession, yes multiple abuse cases, but there are also swathes of youngsters who are at the mercy of whoever is looking after them. Whether by neglect or necessity, the outcome is unfortunately the same.
The options are not simply work, nursery or a handy grandparent. To think that's all the choices anyone has for child "care" is naive in the extreme.
And to think that having both (or indeed a single) parent families working means they can't be part of the problem is ludicrous. It's a standard answer for fee paying school staff to lament being asked how easy it is to only teach the offspring of the well off, the usual being the majority of the parents thinking that it's the school's job to bring up their children as that's what they're paid to do.
Anyway, it wasn't today's mission to get into an argument on PH, I've got some fun stuff to do
I will go back to my earlier thought on it though-it isn't the sole reason but I do think it's a massive part of the problem.PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
PRO 5T said:
I imagine it’s a combination of a lot of different reasons but I think the major one is both parents working these days.
I've got two kids in state primary school and I can assure you it isn't the kids with two working parents who have the issues.I'm pretty close to this issue in two different ways, children of working parents are not the problem here.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 08:41
We have had examples individually of children being left to entertain themselves in office car parks while the parents worked. We have the children of extremely professional parents that social services have been involved in.
It's fantastic you don't see the problems-sometimes we wish we didn't.
But there are huge numbers of problem families in every school (obviously I can't prove that to you but it is the case in every school into which we have come into contact with). Yes we have had children with multiple £10ks of drugs found in their possession, yes multiple abuse cases, but there are also swathes of youngsters who are at the mercy of whoever is looking after them. Whether by neglect or necessity, the outcome is unfortunately the same.
The options are not simply work, nursery or a handy grandparent. To think that's all the choices anyone has for child "care" is naive in the extreme.
And to think that having both (or indeed a single) parent families working means they can't be part of the problem is ludicrous. It's a standard answer for fee paying school staff to lament being asked how easy it is to only teach the offspring of the well off, the usual being the majority of the parents thinking that it's the school's job to bring up their children as that's what they're paid to do.
Anyway, it wasn't today's mission to get into an argument on PH, I've got some fun stuff to do
I will go back to my earlier thought on it though-it isn't the sole reason but I do think it's a massive part of the problem.Of the problem kids I'm aware of not one has two parents functioning well enough to go to work except for rare occasions where the child is adopted/fostered and has been 'pre-damaged'. (..and I'm aware of a lot!)
I'm sure being in a car park at a parent's workplace does happen. I still don't think those kids are the ones causing the big problems and making teachers resign. If both partners are together enough to get dressed, get the kids in a car and go to work they're nowhere near the bottom of the parenting pile. It wouldn't even be worthy of mention amongst the collection of horror stories I hear. (I have heard of a year 3 child being left outside of a sex club, and frankly, given their home situation, I thought they were better off there than at home.)
I'm not sure how we resolve this, we'll just have to accept were seeing wildly different causes of dysfunctional kids.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Wednesday 28th February 11:13
Hey my favourite topic as Mrs V. is a Primary School Teacher.
Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them!
"WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"
Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them!
"WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
vikingaero said:
Hey my favourite topic as Mrs V. is a Primary School Teacher.
Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them! "WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"
Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
How many Kids have you got out of interest?Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them!
"WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
vikingaero said:
Hey my favourite topic as Mrs V. is a Primary School Teacher.
Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them! "WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"
Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
Waxon.. Really? Is that a Viking thing? Yep many kids not toilet trained, can't dress/undress themselves for PE, can't use cutlery etc etc.
Common themes?
Names such as Jaxon, Klaxon, Tyler, Kai, Waxon, Waxoff and double-barrelled Christian names
These kids will have the whole gamut of Ralph Lauren and other designer clothing at the age of 4
# premium cars picking them up that park on DYLs and Zig Zags
Always late picking them up, because the queue at Costa or McDonalds was out of the car park
These parents complain when they have to do homework with their kids or [shock/horror] have to read to them!
"WTF" I hav 2 reed 2 dem, Whassat dey doin' at skool den?"Both parents working isn't an issue. The best parents are those that both work, bust a gut to get them to school on time and pick them up and are utterly horrified when they are late due to circumstances outside of their control (motorway closed down etc), engage in every word said about their child and take on board what they need to do to help their child, which means helping them with their homework and reading to/with them.
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
Edited by vikingaero on Wednesday 28th February 11:35
There seems to be rather a collective amnesia about the pandemic, the lockdowns, and the absolutely disastrous effect these had on the young.
And our utterly shameful failure to take this seriously.
Why is everything so fked up? Including but especially this? It’s because of the terrifying madness that just occurred.
I well recall trying to explain to my 14 year old daughter. It scared the bejesus out of them. And everybody else.
These kids were very young when it happened.
And our utterly shameful failure to take this seriously.
Why is everything so f
ked up? Including but especially this? It’s because of the terrifying madness that just occurred. I well recall trying to explain to my 14 year old daughter. It scared the bejesus out of them. And everybody else.
These kids were very young when it happened.
Edited by W124 on Wednesday 28th February 11:45
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