Baltimore bridge collapse
Discussion
I read that the 6 people who are missing are construction workers. Even if they landed in water, they will likely have had heavy PPE on them which would make swimming/floating something of a challenge. It would be interesting to know if they were wearing any kind of buoyancy aid (not all are bulky), and if there are any changes to come as a result. Perhaps the circumstances are too remote..
Also noted is that the ship was able to get an emergency message out, and traffic was stopped. That was commendable and will have saved lives.
Also noted is that the ship was able to get an emergency message out, and traffic was stopped. That was commendable and will have saved lives.
Hard-Drive said:
Fascinating stuff, thank you for posting. As a Solent "WAFI"* who sees these things regularly I was also fairly convinced they'd gone hard astern too but I'd not thought about the prop walk/near miss element...yikes! I also had no idea that they actually stopped and reversed the engine and there's no gearbox...I guess that's why tugs are always involved in case it won't start again?
What about the big cross channel ferries I see manoeuvring so precisely in harbour, I don't think they are azimuth drive, do they have gearboxes?
Either way, I'll be giving them an even wider berth this season...thanks for the insight.
The latest generation have Azipods, 2 at each end, which can offer very precise manoeuvring even in fairy rough conditions. Even the older generation have 2x beefy bow thrusters and twin screw at the back which hold them in place. Then, the DHB (Dover Harbour Board) have tugs in case wind is too strong for them to pull away. (rare). What about the big cross channel ferries I see manoeuvring so precisely in harbour, I don't think they are azimuth drive, do they have gearboxes?
Either way, I'll be giving them an even wider berth this season...thanks for the insight.
- WAFI...for the uninitiated...Wind Assisted F***ing Idiot
In any case, the dead ship scenario can still happen. Happened to me more than once - last one was in 2022, but nowhere near port. Reason was an imbecile, poorly trained 3rd Engineer who hit the wrong switch and killed the ship. A design fault which wasn't identified until then.
surveyor said:
I read that the 6 people who are missing are construction workers. Even if they landed in water, they will likely have had heavy PPE on them which would make swimming/floating something of a challenge. It would be interesting to know if they were wearing any kind of buoyancy aid (not all are bulky), and if there are any changes to come as a result. Perhaps the circumstances are too remote..
Also noted is that the ship was able to get an emergency message out, and traffic was stopped. That was commendable and will have saved lives.
Sadly if you watch the video there are vehicles on the bridge away from the boat; when the bridge collapses the towers come down on them (at least from one perspective). Also noted is that the ship was able to get an emergency message out, and traffic was stopped. That was commendable and will have saved lives.
surveyor said:
I read that the 6 people who are missing are construction workers. Even if they landed in water, they will likely have had heavy PPE on them which would make swimming/floating something of a challenge. It would be interesting to know if they were wearing any kind of buoyancy aid (not all are bulky), and if there are any changes to come as a result.
Why on earth would they be wearing any buoyancy aid when they are road workers filling in pot holes in the road surface...?Even the most risk adverse risk assessment for that task would not include "wearing buoyancy aid in case ship crashes into bridge pier and road deck crashes into harbour"....
I hope the guy they fished out of the water uninjured bought a lottery ticket last night.....as his stars were well and truly aligned.
vaud said:
Sadly if you watch the video there are vehicles on the bridge away from the boat; when the bridge collapses the towers come down on them (at least from one perspective).
I was presuming that they were construction vehiclesaeropilot said:
surveyor said:
I read that the 6 people who are missing are construction workers. Even if they landed in water, they will likely have had heavy PPE on them which would make swimming/floating something of a challenge. It would be interesting to know if they were wearing any kind of buoyancy aid (not all are bulky), and if there are any changes to come as a result.
Why on earth would they be wearing any buoyancy aid when they are road workers filling in pot holes in the road surface...?Even the most risk adverse risk assessment for that task would not include "wearing buoyancy aid in case ship crashes into bridge pier and road deck crashes into harbour"....
I hope the guy they fished out of the water uninjured bought a lottery ticket last night.....as his stars were well and truly aligned.
surveyor said:
vaud said:
Sadly if you watch the video there are vehicles on the bridge away from the boat; when the bridge collapses the towers come down on them (at least from one perspective).
I was presuming that they were construction vehiclesaeropilot said:
surveyor said:
I read that the 6 people who are missing are construction workers. Even if they landed in water, they will likely have had heavy PPE on them which would make swimming/floating something of a challenge. It would be interesting to know if they were wearing any kind of buoyancy aid (not all are bulky), and if there are any changes to come as a result.
Why on earth would they be wearing any buoyancy aid when they are road workers filling in pot holes in the road surface...?Even the most risk adverse risk assessment for that task would not include "wearing buoyancy aid in case ship crashes into bridge pier and road deck crashes into harbour"....
I hope the guy they fished out of the water uninjured bought a lottery ticket last night.....as his stars were well and truly aligned.
Hard-Drive said:
Fascinating stuff, thank you for posting. As a Solent "WAFI"* who sees these things regularly I was also fairly convinced they'd gone hard astern too but I'd not thought about the prop walk/near miss element...yikes! I also had no idea that they actually stopped and reversed the engine and there's no gearbox...I guess that's why tugs are always involved in case it won't start again?
What about the big cross channel ferries I see manoeuvring so precisely in harbour, I don't think they are azimuth drive, do they have gearboxes?
Either way, I'll be giving them an even wider berth this season...thanks for the insight.
Always blows my mind how fast these massive ships are.What about the big cross channel ferries I see manoeuvring so precisely in harbour, I don't think they are azimuth drive, do they have gearboxes?
Either way, I'll be giving them an even wider berth this season...thanks for the insight.
- WAFI...for the uninitiated...Wind Assisted F***ing Idiot
When you're in a 40 foot stinkpot hanging on for grim death winding its b
ks off at 23 knots to get out of the way of the cruise ship that's pulling out of the port half a mile in front of you only for it up the gas and steam away from you before you've even got thereAbbott said:
As I see it there are 3 very clear and very separate steps
1, Ensure all bodies are are recovered (weeks)
2, Clear the vessel and then clear all debris from the navigation channel allowing port to open (Months)
3, Build new bridge (years)
Pretty sure they can clear the navigation channel in weeks once evidence is documented. The vessel is clearly still sea worthy and has only superficial damage.1, Ensure all bodies are are recovered (weeks)
2, Clear the vessel and then clear all debris from the navigation channel allowing port to open (Months)
3, Build new bridge (years)
Apply enough resources and getting the channel navigable again shouldn't take too long.
Byker28i said:
Biden has stated the US govt will pay for the new bridge. Surely it will take some time to design and build?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/26/...
As I understand it his intention is to provide federal funds for the rebuilding to remove the delay that would happen if they waited for all the court cases to be dealt with and insurance to pay out - which could take a decade or more. When insurance eventually pays out then the government will get its money back.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/26/...
Vipers said:
Looks like my poor drone flying, but interesting footageVipers said:
I posted that last night.MartG said:
As I understand it his intention is to provide federal funds for the rebuilding to remove the delay that would happen if they waited for all the court cases to be dealt with and insurance to pay out - which could take a decade or more. When insurance eventually pays out then the government will get its money back.
And critically there are >150,000 blue collar jobs attached to that port (and supply chain) which can't wait. vaud said:
Abbott said:
As I see it there are 3 very clear and very separate steps
1, Ensure all bodies are are recovered (weeks)
2, Clear the vessel and then clear all debris from the navigation channel allowing port to open (Months)
3, Build new bridge (years)
Pretty sure they can clear the navigation channel in weeks once evidence is documented. The vessel is clearly still sea worthy and has only superficial damage.1, Ensure all bodies are are recovered (weeks)
2, Clear the vessel and then clear all debris from the navigation channel allowing port to open (Months)
3, Build new bridge (years)
Apply enough resources and getting the channel navigable again shouldn't take too long.
Stick Legs said:
On sea passage a ship like this will be running her main engine at constant revs so a turbo or shaft alternator will provide the electrical power for the ship.
Main engine will be in the 60-80MW range, low speed 2 stroke diesel running on heavy fuel oil. These engines are direct drive and are reversed by stopping them, changing the firing order (by moving the fuel pump cam on the old ships, electronically now) and re starting with the crank running in the opposite direction.
On approach to port she will require variable revs and as the propellor is direct drive from the engine, the engine is changed over to gas oil (what you know as diesel) and also a dedicated generator is run to provide electricity for the ship, and another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap in the event of a black out. These generators will be in the 4-6MW range.
There is then an emergency generator, in another space to the engine room, that provides enough power to run the winches, lights, steering gear. This should auto start within 15 seconds of a blackout.
There is also a standby 24v battery supply for things like emergency lighting & control systems.
The only engine that provides propulsion is the main engine.
Thanks for the post, really interesting.Main engine will be in the 60-80MW range, low speed 2 stroke diesel running on heavy fuel oil. These engines are direct drive and are reversed by stopping them, changing the firing order (by moving the fuel pump cam on the old ships, electronically now) and re starting with the crank running in the opposite direction.
On approach to port she will require variable revs and as the propellor is direct drive from the engine, the engine is changed over to gas oil (what you know as diesel) and also a dedicated generator is run to provide electricity for the ship, and another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap in the event of a black out. These generators will be in the 4-6MW range.
There is then an emergency generator, in another space to the engine room, that provides enough power to run the winches, lights, steering gear. This should auto start within 15 seconds of a blackout.
There is also a standby 24v battery supply for things like emergency lighting & control systems.
The only engine that provides propulsion is the main engine.
When you say " another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap"... what kind of timescale is that?
As a complete layman, I'm just trying to get my head around the power to critical stuff on such a large ship potentially being interrupted just from a generator s
tting the bed. I would have thought there would be a redundant generator already running for immediate failover? Or can you bring one up from that 'standby' state pretty immediately? Edited by budgie smuggler on Wednesday 27th March 11:51
budgie smuggler said:
Thanks for the post, really interesting.
When you say " another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap"... what kind of timescale is that?
As a complete layman, I'm just trying to get my head around the power to critical stuff on such a large ship potentially being interrupted just from a generator stting the bed. I would have thought there would be a redundant generator already running for immediate failover? Or can you bring one up from that 'standby' state pretty immediately?
Our SOPs are to have all available main generators running when manoeuvring. Other operators may do it differently. When you say " another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap"... what kind of timescale is that?
As a complete layman, I'm just trying to get my head around the power to critical stuff on such a large ship potentially being interrupted just from a generator s
tting the bed. I would have thought there would be a redundant generator already running for immediate failover? Or can you bring one up from that 'standby' state pretty immediately? A standby generator should be available within seconds, hence 'standby', and on most modern vessels will be started automatically by the power management system. Additional generators may take more time to be brought online.
The emergency generator needs to start within 45seconds (SOLAS requirement, irrespective of flag or classification society), which I think Elephants already mentioned in the thread.
LimaDelta said:
Our SOPs are to have all available main generators running when manoeuvring. Other operators may do it differently.
A standby generator should be available within seconds, hence 'standby', and on most modern vessels will be started automatically by the power management system. Additional generators may take more time to be brought online.
The emergency generator needs to start within 45seconds (SOLAS requirement, irrespective of flag or classification society), which I think Elephants already mentioned in the thread.
ThanksA standby generator should be available within seconds, hence 'standby', and on most modern vessels will be started automatically by the power management system. Additional generators may take more time to be brought online.
The emergency generator needs to start within 45seconds (SOLAS requirement, irrespective of flag or classification society), which I think Elephants already mentioned in the thread.
eliot said:
Vipers said:
I posted that last night.
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