Baltimore bridge collapse

[Stick Legs]

LimaDelta said:

budgie smuggler said:

Thanks for the post, really interesting.

When you say " another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap"... what kind of timescale is that?

As a complete layman, I'm just trying to get my head around the power to critical stuff on such a large ship potentially being interrupted just from a generator stting the bed. I would have thought there would be a redundant generator already running for immediate failover? Or can you bring one up from that 'standby' state pretty immediately?

Our SOPs are to have all available main generators running when manoeuvring. Other operators may do it differently.

A standby generator should be available within seconds, hence 'standby', and on most modern vessels will be started automatically by the power management system. Additional generators may take more time to be brought online.

The emergency generator needs to start within 45seconds (SOLAS requirement, irrespective of flag or classification society), which I think Elephants already mentioned in the thread.

We are currently working on our new build & we are trying to design a Diesel Electric PMS that specifically allows us to proceed on a voyage with engines that aren’t serviceable, so that in the event of a problem we can continue trading.

Totally feasible using multiple engines, but people being what they are, if you give them 4 engines & one fails they won’t want to keep trading, despite the fact the current ship has one.

Writing the SOP as a minimum KW required to be seaworthy.

[aeropilot]

vaud said:

Abbott said:

As I see it there are 3 very clear and very separate steps
1, Ensure all bodies are are recovered (weeks)
2, Clear the vessel and then clear all debris from the navigation channel allowing port to open (Months)
3, Build new bridge (years)

Pretty sure they can clear the navigation channel in weeks once evidence is documented. The vessel is clearly still sea worthy and has only superficial damage.

Have you not seen the huge great chunk of the starboard side of the bow section that has been torn off by the impact.....!!

I'd be surprised if they contemplate moving that anywhere other than just within the harbour area, and most likely to a repair yard nearby. Can't see a long open sea voyage being risked with the size of that gaping hole.

[Stick Legs]

Looks to be all forward of the collision bulkhead & above the margin line, could be issued a single voyage certificate of class to head straight to repair.

[aeropilot]

Stick Legs said:

Looks to be all forward of the collision bulkhead & above the margin line, could be issued a single voyage certificate of class to head straight to repair.

Similar to what the USN did decades ago, when one of the Iowa class battleships rammed another USN vessel and ripped of most of the bow........and they sailed it home, and replaced the complete bow section with the bow from one of the sister Iowa class that was cancelled but still half built.

[asfault]

Byker28i said:

Biden has stated the US govt will pay for the new bridge. Surely it will take some time to design and build?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/26/...

I mean surely jsut copy and paste the old one.
no need to research the grounds, all the concrete bases etc will be fine but obviously get inspected, planning literally already a given. access easy.
Could be pretty quick to do.

[blueg33]

If this happened in the UK no construction workers would be harmed.............they were apparently repairing potholes!

Brevity aside, I am astounded that there aren't more people missing, were cars going over the bridge?

Is this a one in a million accident or is it the result of a series of errors?

[hidetheelephants]

biggles330d said:

asfault said:

Stick Legs said:

808 Estate said:

Question for the shipping experts.

Regarding vessels now stuck within the harbour, would they considering unloading these and ship the containers by road/rail to another port and reload them to a different vessel? Or would they sit it out hoping they might get part of the channel cleared in a month or two even if the Dali is still stuck there.

That’s exactly what will happen.

Similarly any cargo for that port will have to go into other ports & be transhipped.

Every single person in the world will feel this event, be it via cost of goods, delays of products, cost of insurance etc etc.

Its exactly what thebgovernments of the world don't want. An inflation sustaining event.
Will shipping rates head back north on this?

Can't see it myself. It's not like the Suez canal is blocked, or the whole industry is re-routing around Africa to avoid pirates and missiles in the Red Sea.
Baltimore is a big port, but it is one Port in the US, and the 10th largest. There will be some short term disruption but it won't be long before freight is re-routed to alternatives. It's like suggesting the global freight in the UK would increase if Teesport was closed for a while.
Freight in the port will get shuttled off to an alternative hub by road or rail. Freight to the port will run elsewhere. Vessels in the port though, well they aren't going anywhere fast. And impact on the port itself will be very large until the blockage is cleared and a new bridge is built. I suspect it will take years for Baltimore port to recover - thats where the biggest impact will be.

Looking at the maps, I'd suggest the bigger impact will be on the functioning of a large coal port in Baltimore, which might be more challenging to replicate.

Apparently it handles 25% of US coal traffic and 800,000 vehicle movements a year, the container port is relatively small and is less likely to be felt by the rest of the US but the other two will have wider economic effects if the channel isn't cleared quite quickly.

[Benni]

On german radio, it was mentioned that the engine troubles/shutdowns were a result of "polluted fuel",
can anyone here confirm that, has it been mentioned elsewhere ?
When did this ship get the latest refuelling ?
I guess that there are fuel samples collected from everything that is pumped into the tank(s) ?
Is polluted / diluted / "fecked around with" fuel an issue in global shipping at all ?

[BrettMRC]

Benni said:

On german radio, it was mentioned that the engine troubles/shutdowns were a result of "polluted fuel",
can anyone here confirm that, has it been mentioned elsewhere ?
When did this ship get the latest refuelling ?
I guess that there are fuel samples collected from everything that is pumped into the tank(s) ?
Is polluted / diluted / "fecked around with" fuel an issue in global shipping at all ?

A two stroke diesel, (which I assume this is) will run on pretty much anything that it can get through the nozzle/injector - so I doubt it's a fuel quality issue...

[hidetheelephants]

Fuel quality has become a bigger problem since the last rule change; sulphur content is down for heavy fuel oil and some refineries/blenders have been selling unstable fuel or fuel which reacts badly with fuel from other refineries/blenders. That's on top of the traditional quality risks of water content, catalyst fines, grit, etc.

[LimaDelta]

BrettMRC said:

A two stroke diesel, (which I assume this is) will run on pretty much anything that it can get through the nozzle/injector - so I doubt it's a fuel quality issue...

It may burn, but if compatibility issues block up filters and prevent it from even getting to the engines, then it can conceivably cause a problem which means no matter how many generators you have, the lights are going off. We had one such issue in Venezuela many moons ago.

Not saying it was the case here, but it is a possibility. Fuel is one of the few things which is common to all the engines on the vessel.

[Stick Legs]

BrettMRC said:

Benni said:

On german radio, it was mentioned that the engine troubles/shutdowns were a result of "polluted fuel",
can anyone here confirm that, has it been mentioned elsewhere ?
When did this ship get the latest refuelling ?
I guess that there are fuel samples collected from everything that is pumped into the tank(s) ?
Is polluted / diluted / "fecked around with" fuel an issue in global shipping at all ?

A two stroke diesel, (which I assume this is) will run on pretty much anything that it can get through the nozzle/injector - so I doubt it's a fuel quality issue...

Whilst true that HFO is pretty thick they would have almost certainly been on MGO leaving port.

This is a purifier on one ship I was on after the fuel was supplied off spec & waxed.




Could be possible if ambient temperature was low enough & the system are cold…

[LimaDelta]

Stick Legs said:

BrettMRC said:

Benni said:

On german radio, it was mentioned that the engine troubles/shutdowns were a result of "polluted fuel",
can anyone here confirm that, has it been mentioned elsewhere ?
When did this ship get the latest refuelling ?
I guess that there are fuel samples collected from everything that is pumped into the tank(s) ?
Is polluted / diluted / "fecked around with" fuel an issue in global shipping at all ?

A two stroke diesel, (which I assume this is) will run on pretty much anything that it can get through the nozzle/injector - so I doubt it's a fuel quality issue...

Whilst true that HFO is pretty thick they would have almost certainly been on MGO leaving port.

This is a purifier on one ship I was on after the fuel was supplied off spec & waxed.




Could be possible if ambient temperature was low enough & the system are cold…

That's similar to our problem above. Spec was good though, but it was incompatible with the stuff already in the day tanks. The only way we could keep the lights on was by cleaning the strainers with blow torches in the workshop, and swapping back over. Repeat ad nauseum for about three days. IFO not HFO, but same result.

Glad my boat runs on champagne now (ADO).

[Vipers]

Stick Legs said:

LimaDelta said:

budgie smuggler said:

Thanks for the post, really interesting.

When you say " another generator is on standby with water & lube oil pre heated and circulating to come on the board asap"... what kind of timescale is that?

As a complete layman, I'm just trying to get my head around the power to critical stuff on such a large ship potentially being interrupted just from a generator stting the bed. I would have thought there would be a redundant generator already running for immediate failover? Or can you bring one up from that 'standby' state pretty immediately?

Our SOPs are to have all available main generators running when manoeuvring. Other operators may do it differently.

A standby generator should be available within seconds, hence 'standby', and on most modern vessels will be started automatically by the power management system. Additional generators may take more time to be brought online.

The emergency generator needs to start within 45seconds (SOLAS requirement, irrespective of flag or classification society), which I think Elephants already mentioned in the thread.

We are currently working on our new build & we are trying to design a Diesel Electric PMS that specifically allows us to proceed on a voyage with engines that aren’t serviceable, so that in the event of a problem we can continue trading.

Totally feasible using multiple engines, but people being what they are, if you give them 4 engines & one fails they won’t want to keep trading, despite the fact the current ship has one.

Writing the SOP as a minimum KW required to be seaworthy.

With all the back up systems, can anyone say it is totally 100% redundant? A few years ago on a DP ship in the North Sea, state of the art, for those who dont know what that is, the ship keeps station by using Dynamic Positioning, all computer controlled, as I said it was state of art, without warning, the ship decided to go full ahead, DP operator put in to manual control to stop the move nothing happened.

The ship came into port, and was examined in fine detail by the computer experts, they never found the fault, couldnt reproduce it, so let it go back to work, on a rig with three generators, one being maintained, one in use and one standby, the online one failed, the standby didnt come on line despite being checked almost on a weekly basis, st happens, from what I have read the ship had two power failures, and had been having power problems even before it left dock, so with all the fail safes you have, it seems possible and probable something falied leaving a dead ship.

[hidetheelephants]

9/10 problems with DP or autopilots are operator errors; the others are 9/10 sensor FUBARs. The remaining 1% is WTF ghost in the machine st.

[TGCOTF-dewey]

hidetheelephants said:

9/10 problems with DP or autopilots are operator errors; the others are 9/10 sensor FUBARs. The remaining 1% is WTF ghost in the machine st.

Software... As I cited above, USS York town. PMS crashed - blue screen - and the whole ship was dead in the water.

Modern platform management systems interconnect so many discrete systems that trying to work out how they can adversely interact is... Err... Challenging.

[Earthdweller]

Just out of interest would whoever recovers the ship be able to claim marine salvage?

[hidetheelephants]

Earthdweller said:

Just out of interest would whoever recovers the ship be able to claim marine salvage?

It won't be open form; the underwriter will tender the job and let it to the cheapest bid, although the feds may well take over and run things to get it done quicker.

[rdjohn]

hidetheelephants said:

9/10 problems with DP or autopilots are operator errors; the others are 9/10 sensor FUBARs. The remaining 1% is WTF ghost in the machine st.

BBC News said that there were two pilots aboard. What would they be doing?

[skwdenyer]

eliot said:

Good video covering it

https://youtu.be/N39w6aQFKSQ?si=3XmxHzdPOTUTO7Gm

Interesting. This from the comments - does this resonate with those experienced in the field?




Also interesting in the video the ship went dark a third time at the point of impact, suggesting that whatever was ailing her was repeatedly “tripping.”