Iran - Israel War

[otolith]

eharding said:

otolith said:

Car bon said:

Mr Penguin said:

Depends on the scale and particular religion. A fundamentalist Quaker government wouldn't be too bad.

Unless you like cars....

Would still be a dry country too.

The Quakers had a hand in running the largest brewery in the world at one point - the Anchor Brewery, run by Barclay Perkins & Co, a Quaker family business - they're not averse to a beer of an evening.

Aye, and lots of Muslims run off licences - fundamentalist Quakers might be less amenable, though it depends how fundamental (it appears that the importance of temperance to the Quaker movement appeared in the 19th century and faded through the 20th)

[ukwill]

skwdenyer said:

If you can show me evidence proving all of this false then of course I'll read and change my mind!

You said that Israel funded Hamas. That’s the kind of thing I’d expect Jackson Hinkle to tweet.

It’s clear that it was Qatari money, not Israeli money. And this isn’t something that’s just been found out. It’s been known about for years. It would appear that you weren’t aware that United Nations agencies ended up in charge of distributing the money. Obviously, to Bibi’s detractors post oct 7th, this has resurfaced and been used as an almighty “we told you so” cudgel, but other than Haaretz (who else), not too many brought it up over the last decade (even after previous conflicts). As ever with ME politics, the ins and outs of the whole grubby affair are going to sound different depending on who is telling the story, but the reality is Qatar had been funding Hamas long before Israel got involved. Israel wanted to stop that, but without making the situation in Gaza any worse.

A relatively in-depth article
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeas...

[JJJ.]

ukwill said:

skwdenyer said:

If you can show me evidence proving all of this false then of course I'll read and change my mind!

You said that Israel funded Hamas. That’s the kind of thing I’d expect Jackson Hinkle to tweet.

It’s clear that it was Qatari money, not Israeli money. And this isn’t something that’s just been found out. It’s been known about for years. It would appear that you weren’t aware that United Nations agencies ended up in charge of distributing the money. Obviously, to Bibi’s detractors post oct 7th, this has resurfaced and been used as an almighty “we told you so” cudgel, but other than Haaretz (who else), not too many brought it up over the last decade (even after previous conflicts). As ever with ME politics, the ins and outs of the whole grubby affair are going to sound different depending on who is telling the story, but the reality is Qatar had been funding Hamas long before Israel got involved. Israel wanted to stop that, but without making the situation in Gaza any worse.

A relatively in-depth article
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeas...

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2023/11/21/world/israel-failed-policy/



""The international focus on the war in Gaza has helped obscure the fact that Israel in the 1980s aided the rise of the Islamist Hamas..."

"Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli-financed Islamist movement in Gaza,_ with Israel’s then-military governor in that territory, _Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists.."


"Israel, by contrast, persisted with its covert nexus with Hamas. With the consent of Israel, Qatar, a longtime sponsor of jihadi groups, funneled $1.8 billion to Hamas..."

Edited by JJJ. on Tuesday 16th April 01:00

[Oliver Hardy]

S600BSB said:

Mr Penguin said:

g4ry13 said:

I wonder if they would be calling for calm and de-escalation if another country launched a drone towards the UK. Let alone 300!

Israel seems to be the only country which gets attacked and then told to act with restraint.

You're right, they are the only country told not to defend itself. In this case someone has to do it, Iran have said they want to end it and each side has got a hit against the other. Best to accept a score draw than continue to ramp it up.

It certainly all felt a bit pre-planned and orchestrated. Let’s hope this is the end of it.

Yep lets hope so, no more rocket attacks by Hamas or Hezbollah, no more attacks on shipping. hostages will be released.

[Blackpuddin]

Wouldn't it be refreshing if, instead of missiles, Israel sent a single olive branch to Iran.

[grumbledoak]

Blackpuddin said:

Wouldn't it be refreshing if, instead of missiles, Israel sent a single olive branch to Iran.

God knows they've enough of them.

From all the Palestinian olive trees the settlers are cutting down.

[biggles330d]

Hamas raided Israel, killed 1200 and kidnapped others.
Israel reacted by obliterating Gaza, seeing 30,000+ deaths, many of women and children. Apparently not a disproportionate response. (so by that logic, Hamas supporting nations could respond by obliterating Israel and killing 300,000 would also be considered not to be disproportunate? Just clarifying the underlying logic.)

Israel fighting its battles in Gaza but decide it's a good idea to turn it's weapons around an bomb the Iranian embassy in Syria and kill three important people. Just what the fk did they think would happen????
Iran reacted by firing 300 odd warheads at Israel. With a fair degree of advance notice and the attack being tracked on TV from the moment they were fired. Almost none reach a target and nobody killed. The cynic in me can understand the argument it was more a message than an attack. Cameron however determined Iran's response was 'disproportionate'. (Yet Israel's to Gaza wasn't.... Come on...)

Israel has a choice. Reflect on poking the Iranian bear, listen to its allies and be the big man and walk away so it doesn't escalate. Sadly, I fear we are more likely to see Israel pick its fight with Iran and fire back. And the next volley from Iran is likely to be rather more meaningful and final.

I've no skin in the game and am neither an Israeli or Palestinian supporter. But I have to admit I am really really struggling to have empathy with Israel in this.
Personally I wish our Government would refocus on the threat to Europe from Russia and leave the middle east to squabble as it always has.

[isaldiri]

biggles330d said:

Personally I wish our Government would refocus on the threat to Europe from Russia and leave the middle east to squabble as it always has.

Actually given where things stand, what happens to the middle east is likely far more consequential to us. Russian is bogged down in ukraine and that stalemate largely continuing or even shifting somewhat isn't going to meaningfully affect anyone other than the ukrainians. Further disruption of shipping through the suez or a shutdown of the straits of hormuz however wrt to crude oil prices would be rather a lot more of a headache if the squabble in that area gets out of hand.

[Bathroom_Security]

biggles330d said:

Israel has a choice. Reflect on poking the Iranian bear, listen to its allies and be the big man and walk away so it doesn't escalate. Sadly, I fear we are more likely to see Israel pick its fight with Iran and fire back. And the next volley from Iran is likely to be rather more meaningful and final.

I do think Israel must feel emboldened or untouchable by it's US backing.

Israel really has taken the absolute piss with its response in Palestine, can't imagine what sort of people are going to emerge from the ashes of that conflict in the next 20 years. Hamas MK2.

[Blackpuddin]

Even by the pathetic playground rulebook that Israel seems to be playing to that's one-all in the spat with Iran. Another 'response' is totally inappropriate. It's looking increasingly likely that they'll only be satisfied when the whole Middle East is on fire. Cannot understand why they think that's a good place to be heading, or why the ordinary people of Israel are letting Nettanyahoo off with all this.

[paulrockliffe]

There's nothing diplomatic about what got hit in Syria, it was the Syrian head quarters of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps, a terrorist organisation that sits in Syrian organising terrorist activity across the Middle East. It would not have diplomatic status in any normal country. The people that died there were terrorists, including those that were involved in pulling the Hamas strings on October the 7th.

If the US had flattened it when the people that use it attacked and killed US service personnel in Syria no one would have batted an eye lid, yet here we are hearing about how awful it was that Israel killed some terrorists in Syria. Why is that?

[Blackpuddin]

In playground bully terms, Israel did a thing to Iran, so Iran did a thing to Israel. Now Israel thinks it should do another thing to Iran in revenge for the thing Iran did to Israel is response to the thing Israel did to Iran.

[ukwill]

So many keep thinking that this started because Iran killed some IRGC guys in an annex building.

When we all know that via their various proxies, Iran has been lobbing rockets into Israel (and other countries) for, well ever.

I cant think of another country on this planet that would be expected to just put up with that, indefinitely.

Iran has destabilised the entire region since the Mullah's took control. Again, everyone knows this - but everyone keeps their heads down and at best tuts every now and again. If Israel didn't exist the ME would *still* be a warzone, such is the illogical ideology that underpins the areas unrest. It's all such a load of bks.

[Blackpuddin]

You could trace loads of stuff back for decades, not just here but anywhere. All I know is that right now, in April 2024, a tit-for-tat 'plan' is pathetic and is only going to end one way.
It might not be macho and as such I don't suppose it will ever happen but a bit of common humanity is desperately needed.

[ukwill]

Blackpuddin said:

You could trace loads of stuff back for decades, not just here but anywhere. All I know is that right now, in April 2024, a tit-for-tat 'plan' is pathetic and is only going to end one way.
It might not be macho and as such I don't suppose it will ever happen but a bit of common humanity is desperately needed.

I completely agree with you. An eye for eye yada yada.

The problem is Iran has no real ability to prevent splinter groups of its various proxies from doing their own thing. But ultimately, as long as it's targeting Israel, they're not too concerned. To an extent common humanity is an alien concept when your belief system has been warped to the point where you think the righteous thing in the eyes of your particular sky pixie is to kill jews.

[fido]

If Israel are going to 'retaliate' they might as well take out Iran's nuclear facilities, and they probably need to do that at some time in the future, but not right now.

[JJJ.]

ukwill said:

So many keep thinking that this started because Iran killed some IRGC guys in an annex building.

When we all know that via their various proxies, Iran has been lobbing rockets into Israel (and other countries) for, well ever.

I cant think of another country on this planet that would be expected to just put up with that, indefinitely.

Iran has destabilised the entire region since the Mullah's took control. Again, everyone knows this - but everyone keeps their heads down and at best tuts every now and again. If Israel didn't exist the ME would *still* be a warzone, such is the illogical ideology that underpins the areas unrest. It's all such a load of bks.

All the Mullah's fault, eh? I love simplicity but really...
And simplicity again this time with a crystal ball, ''if Israel didn't exist the ME would still be a warzone''.
At least you admitted that the existence of Israel or it's policies has contributed to the ME being a warzone.

[Blackpuddin]

ukwill said:

Blackpuddin said:

You could trace loads of stuff back for decades, not just here but anywhere. All I know is that right now, in April 2024, a tit-for-tat 'plan' is pathetic and is only going to end one way.
It might not be macho and as such I don't suppose it will ever happen but a bit of common humanity is desperately needed.

I completely agree with you. An eye for eye yada yada.

The problem is Iran has no real ability to prevent splinter groups of its various proxies from doing their own thing. But ultimately, as long as it's targeting Israel, they're not too concerned. To an extent common humanity is an alien concept when your belief system has been warped to the point where you think the righteous thing in the eyes of your particular sky pixie is to kill jews.

Yep it's incredibly frustrating to see this playing out, like probably every global conflict it feels like it all started bloody centuries ago when somebody said something wrong to somebody else.

[ukwill]

JJJ. said:

ukwill said:

So many keep thinking that this started because Iran killed some IRGC guys in an annex building.

When we all know that via their various proxies, Iran has been lobbing rockets into Israel (and other countries) for, well ever.

I cant think of another country on this planet that would be expected to just put up with that, indefinitely.

Iran has destabilised the entire region since the Mullah's took control. Again, everyone knows this - but everyone keeps their heads down and at best tuts every now and again. If Israel didn't exist the ME would *still* be a warzone, such is the illogical ideology that underpins the areas unrest. It's all such a load of bks.

All the Mullah's fault, eh? I love simplicity but really...
And simplicity again this time with a crystal ball, ''if Israel didn't exist the ME would still be a warzone''.
At least you admitted that the existence of Israel or it's policies has contributed to the ME being a warzone.

I didn't say it's all the Mullah's fault. I said Iran has destablised the entire region since the Mullah's took control. There's a big difference.

And there's no need for a crystal ball - we have over a millenia of history where modern Israel did not exist, but that didn't stop Sunni's and Shia's from murdering one another throughout. All because of some supposed disagreement in the 7th century I mean seriously, what's the point of pretending there are political solutions to the ME conflict?

[s1962a]

Iran says it will respond to any attack with severe force. Considering all their toy drones were shot down, what exactly are they going to retaliate with thats going to have the allies worried?