Assisted Dying
Discussion
isaldiri said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
I mean this with the greatest respect, but you're part of the problem. Your contrasting real world with speculative whataboutary.
Even the article cautions "But medical and legal experts caution that oversimplified media coverage of the cases fail to capture the realities of the system – and warn that sensationalist coverage of a handful of “extreme” cases ignores a larger crisis in the country’s healthcare systems."
We shouldn't have a system that legislates for fringe cases at the cost of the many.
I do think that there will be some very very rare examples where people are pressurised to end their lives, but this cost is worth it if literally thousands of people are not forced to undergo long painful deaths watched helplessly by their families. That s
t stays with every one of the family as well as the medical staff.
Try watching someone's father crying and begging for death due to dementia (or the many many other examples) and see if you feel the same.
The law needs to change, because it is currently inhumane, and it is perfectly possible to put in place protection.
That's a bit unfair to the poster above I think. While I agree that there will always be sensationalist cases highlighted, it's not an unreasonable point to be making that the confidence you seemingly have in the protections in place will not longer term be abused might not quite be justified, particularly as there is an obvious incentive for politicians to go down that slippery slope. And I am someone who is very much in favour of the law being changedEven the article cautions "But medical and legal experts caution that oversimplified media coverage of the cases fail to capture the realities of the system – and warn that sensationalist coverage of a handful of “extreme” cases ignores a larger crisis in the country’s healthcare systems."
We shouldn't have a system that legislates for fringe cases at the cost of the many.
I do think that there will be some very very rare examples where people are pressurised to end their lives, but this cost is worth it if literally thousands of people are not forced to undergo long painful deaths watched helplessly by their families. That s
t stays with every one of the family as well as the medical staff. Try watching someone's father crying and begging for death due to dementia (or the many many other examples) and see if you feel the same.
The law needs to change, because it is currently inhumane, and it is perfectly possible to put in place protection.
chemistry said:
No offence taken, for what it's worth; we're allowed to disagree on a forum 
I have seen loved ones die miserable deaths, sadly. I've also got a friend who is a consultant geriatrician (NHS and private, for what that's worth) and he, like me thinks its a good idea in principle but doesn't trust the system to administer it appropriately.
Whilst I have some sympathy for the argument that we shouldn't not do something because a minority will abuse it, my greater concern is the societal/political pressure. I just have deep concerns that if/when assisted dying is introduced, we're on a path to people who are otherwise relatively healthy being 'encouraged' to die rathe than be a burden. We're facing a demographic time bomb as it is, so it's just too easy to imagine that in 20/30/40 years time the mood will be that once you hit 70, or are long term unemployed through ill health, or have been made to feel like you're a burden (homeless folks etc.) then it's time to 'do the right thing' and sip away...protect the NHS and all that.
I accept of course that one could put in place controls. We could say that folks have to decide at 18 whether they would ever want assisted dying and then formally review that every 5 years...as and when the time comes one's most recent declaration will be taken as gospel, so couldn't be overridden by greedy family etc. The downside of course is that someone might say no at 28 but then get terminally ill at 30 and be unable to reverse their earlier decision. More generally, any controls put in place initially can always be loosened down the line...
Ultimately, as I said initially, I think it's a humane idea in principle, but remain of the view that in practice the risk of abuse and mission creep outweighs the obvious benefits.
Thank you for taking it in the spirit it was intended. I have seen loved ones die miserable deaths, sadly. I've also got a friend who is a consultant geriatrician (NHS and private, for what that's worth) and he, like me thinks its a good idea in principle but doesn't trust the system to administer it appropriately.
Whilst I have some sympathy for the argument that we shouldn't not do something because a minority will abuse it, my greater concern is the societal/political pressure. I just have deep concerns that if/when assisted dying is introduced, we're on a path to people who are otherwise relatively healthy being 'encouraged' to die rathe than be a burden. We're facing a demographic time bomb as it is, so it's just too easy to imagine that in 20/30/40 years time the mood will be that once you hit 70, or are long term unemployed through ill health, or have been made to feel like you're a burden (homeless folks etc.) then it's time to 'do the right thing' and sip away...protect the NHS and all that.
I accept of course that one could put in place controls. We could say that folks have to decide at 18 whether they would ever want assisted dying and then formally review that every 5 years...as and when the time comes one's most recent declaration will be taken as gospel, so couldn't be overridden by greedy family etc. The downside of course is that someone might say no at 28 but then get terminally ill at 30 and be unable to reverse their earlier decision. More generally, any controls put in place initially can always be loosened down the line...
Ultimately, as I said initially, I think it's a humane idea in principle, but remain of the view that in practice the risk of abuse and mission creep outweighs the obvious benefits.
I think the point about pressure is a fair point... The feeling of being burdensome is often reported.
But I think it's important to separate that point from the debate to some degree because that's more about whether we provide adequate end of life and older adult care - which we absolutely do not. That has to be part of a solution.
If we don't though, lots of issues get conflated, and it's easy to put the debate into the all too difficult box.
I tend to take the view, let's explore how we could make it work safely, rather than focus on all the reasons it won't. Don't get me wrong, they're important to understand, because that's how you test how robust the system is.
Doing nothing is not really an option because it's currently the worst of all worlds. We have relatives being forced to kill a loved one, and inadequate end of life care.
XCP said:
Gary C said:
Triumph Man said:
If you want to die, you should be able to die.
And you can.but someone helping is the issue.
Thats the issue.
People have the right to end their life, the crime of 'committing suicide' was removed as a crime in 1961. Assisting however wasn't which seems daft. Especially in light of assisting someone to carry out something which isn't illegal.
100% support this.
My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
No, they're ignoring the expert they quoted who said, in practice, it hasn't been an issue, in favour of whataboutary.
That is not a balance of risk. That looks at the quantum of benefit evidence vs the sacrifice evidence.
BTW we're not handing out death sentences - another alarmist statement - individuals are choosing the time and place of their death. A VERY different concept.
Surely the article only exists because people do think there's been an issue in practice?That is not a balance of risk. That looks at the quantum of benefit evidence vs the sacrifice evidence.
BTW we're not handing out death sentences - another alarmist statement - individuals are choosing the time and place of their death. A VERY different concept.
There was a lot of discussion when ER made her statement.
Surprisingly very little reported on the debate this morning.
This covers some of the stronger points that were made.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/29/jo...
Surprisingly very little reported on the debate this morning.
This covers some of the stronger points that were made.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/apr/29/jo...
skinnyman said:
100% support this.
My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
Heartbreaking.My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
Without in any way trying to diminish the plight of the gentleman, if I treated a dog like this I would be prosecuted, and rightly so.
Earlier I heard a short interview with I think it was a member of the House of Lords who mentioned that the last time they spoke in support of assisted dying they received a handwritten letter from the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Then when just searching to see who it was, I see that George Carey, the former AoC now supports it, when he was previously firmly against:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1892084/assisted...
Perhaps he should speak with Welby and tell him he's wrong?
Then when just searching to see who it was, I see that George Carey, the former AoC now supports it, when he was previously firmly against:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1892084/assisted...
Perhaps he should speak with Welby and tell him he's wrong?
Gareth79 said:
Earlier I heard a short interview with I think it was a member of the House of Lords who mentioned that the last time they spoke in support of assisted dying they received a handwritten letter from the Archbishop of Canterbury.
Then when just searching to see who it was, I see that George Carey, the former AoC now supports it, when he was previously firmly against:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1892084/assisted...
Perhaps he should speak with Welby and tell him he's wrong?
Maybe we should be asking ourselves why these God-grifters are having any say in the first place.Then when just searching to see who it was, I see that George Carey, the former AoC now supports it, when he was previously firmly against:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1892084/assisted...
Perhaps he should speak with Welby and tell him he's wrong?
chemistry said:
Worse, I can see politicians in charge of a perpetually underfunded NHS facing an aging population encouraging long term sick to be good citizens and stop wasting tax payer money.
You can imagine the News at Ten in a few years time, "In a bid to reduce the national debt, the Government has announced an increase in the age at which one will receive the old age pension from seventy to seventy one, and in other news, the compulsory euthanasia age has been reduced a year from the current age of seventy two".XCP said:
skinnyman said:
100% support this.
My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
Heartbreaking.My uncle was born with a Muscular Dystrophy. He was essentially like anyone else until in his teens, then things started to deteriorate. He's gone from driving himself and walking with a stick, to then a walker, to a wheelchair, now he's reached the stage where he's not strong enough to chew. He's had several strokes in the past few years, and he's known for decades that he would die from this condition, yet rather than be allowed to bow out of this world with grace and dignity he's been dragged kicking & screaming into his current condition. After his last stroke he repeatedly tried to remove his various IV drips and tubes, stating "I don't want to live anymore".
I'm sure he's got another 5-10yrs of misery to suffer through though.
Without in any way trying to diminish the plight of the gentleman, if I treated a dog like this I would be prosecuted, and rightly so.
it terrifies me being a burden,
as does the big C
id like to get my stuff in order and off i toddle,
in the next year or two ill make a foilder up and shove it in the safe in the event of my death, scenario
passwsords for accounts etc, and ill be chucking stuff out i dont use over the nexty few years
as does the big C
id like to get my stuff in order and off i toddle,
in the next year or two ill make a foilder up and shove it in the safe in the event of my death, scenario
passwsords for accounts etc, and ill be chucking stuff out i dont use over the nexty few years
dirky dirk said:
it terrifies me being a burden,
as does the big C
id like to get my stuff in order and off i toddle,
in the next year or two ill make a foilder up and shove it in the safe in the event of my death, scenario
passwsords for accounts etc, and ill be chucking stuff out i dont use over the nexty few years
Already got the 'Death File'. as does the big C
id like to get my stuff in order and off i toddle,
in the next year or two ill make a foilder up and shove it in the safe in the event of my death, scenario
passwsords for accounts etc, and ill be chucking stuff out i dont use over the nexty few years
Makes thing easier for the children. They are mentally deciding who has what furniture regularly. Fine by me!
Having just gone through the death of my mum, I am totally for it. No matter how it is wrapped, death is horrible and unpleasant. I own a smallholding and if any of my animals were anywhere near as poorly as my mum I would be able to make that decision, but for some reason this is not allowed for a human.
If the rules are strict and the bar set to a decent level, there is no reason why a dignitas system could not be worked appropriately. One of the questions that crossed my mind over the past few months is why do we strive to keep people who are so frail alive so they can suffer the discomfort right up to their demise? There is no benefit to the individual, their families or society. On top of that, the cost of managing someone through to death is huge. Why do we put everyone through this?
Seeing someone you love, suffer for a prolonged period, knowing they haven't eaten or drunk for days on end, the sound of their breathing, why would anyone think that is a good idea or a nice way to go for them, their families, their carers?
I hope this gathers traction and becomes a law we adopt so I don't put others through what I have just been through.
If the rules are strict and the bar set to a decent level, there is no reason why a dignitas system could not be worked appropriately. One of the questions that crossed my mind over the past few months is why do we strive to keep people who are so frail alive so they can suffer the discomfort right up to their demise? There is no benefit to the individual, their families or society. On top of that, the cost of managing someone through to death is huge. Why do we put everyone through this?
Seeing someone you love, suffer for a prolonged period, knowing they haven't eaten or drunk for days on end, the sound of their breathing, why would anyone think that is a good idea or a nice way to go for them, their families, their carers?
I hope this gathers traction and becomes a law we adopt so I don't put others through what I have just been through.
Sadly, the days of a caring family GP ( in the days before Harold Shipman when you had your own doctor, and were not part of a group practice) would just administer a little extra pain killer ,maybe morphine and the patient would fade away. Doctors wouldn’t dare do that now….hence the end of life suffering as described by fellow posters.
We have Assisted Dying in Canada.
I have all of the requirements and notifications to GP and executor done.
OH completely on board. Why exist in a semi-living state?..I realize that this is just my own decision and of course others will make different calls.
Might. not happen for years but you never know.
I have all of the requirements and notifications to GP and executor done.
OH completely on board. Why exist in a semi-living state?..I realize that this is just my own decision and of course others will make different calls.
Might. not happen for years but you never know.
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