French passenger jet gone missing from radar screens........

[youngsyr]

Podie said:

youngsyr said:

Podie said:

Several studies have been conducted in the past on passenger behaviour in simulated crash situations. Bearing in mind these people know they are safe at the time, it's hard to gauge a true reaction.

However, when given a substantial financial incentive to get off the plane first the results were staggering. People would push and shove, people would get trapped in their seats as people went over the top and broke seats, others were kicked and punched - hell one was even bitten.

Human behaviour is, at times, mind boggling...

I'm not sure that's really relevant to the whole parachute debate as those studies were for obvious reasons carried out with the plane stationary on the ground and in one piece.

My point was, if people react that irrationally on the ground when they know they are safe and in experimental conditions (yeah, the ethics board forms were fun!) - imagine what happens in a real world situation, with genuine fear and terror.

Other evidence shows only those with appropriate training will do what people "expect" - as they automatically follow the training.

It is morbid though - but don't get me started on that aspect of psychology...

I actually read a book on this last week, the title escapes me, but essentially it was an examination of what people do in disaster situations. Apparently the most common reaction (much more than panic) is to do nothing whilst their brains try to process the situation and come up with a solution.

According to the book those people generally being more self-confident (or who have been trained with such a situation in mind so that they feel more confident in that situation) are the ones likely to take action (or stop deliberating earlier).

Apparently panic, in the sense of behaving hysterically, in a disaster situation is actually quite rare.

[asbo]

Ayahuasca said:

Re the speculation about a collision with a drug-running plane - they normally fly at much low altitudes.

Where did that come from?

[maxrider]

Podie said:

People would push and shove, people would get trapped in their seats as people went over the top and broke seats, others were kicked and punched - hell one was even bitten.

Human behaviour is, at times, mind boggling...

Sounds like when we were trying to get onto the last coach from Barcelona to Girona airport, it appears the locals don't 'do' queuing.

[Ayahuasca]

asbo said:

Ayahuasca said:

Re the speculation about a collision with a drug-running plane - they normally fly at much low altitudes.

Where did that come from?

A few posts up!

[insurance_jon]

bugger

[Legend83]

insurance_jon said:

bugger

More information come your way?

[King Herald]

Legend83 said:

Have you ever worn a parachute?
Have you ever had to put one on?
Have you read of the difficulties experienced by bomber crews as they struggled to get out of striken B-17s or Lancasters in WW2?

Imagine 350 untrained, scared passengers ranging in age from 3 months to 90 years of age all trying to cope with parachutes in an aircraft upside down or tumbling, possibly breaking up diving towards the ocean.
Just not a credible scenario, is it?

No.
No.
No.
Agreed. A horrible scenario.

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

plus: Have you ever jumped out of a plane doing 250+ mph?

No, and I wouldn't want to, as it would blow your eyeball's out, just milliseconds before you hit the wing/tailplane and/or motors....

ETA: messed up the quoting, can't be bothered to fix it.

Edited by King Herald on Tuesday 2nd June 15:35

[Podie]

youngsyr said:

Podie said:

youngsyr said:

Podie said:

Several studies have been conducted in the past on passenger behaviour in simulated crash situations. Bearing in mind these people know they are safe at the time, it's hard to gauge a true reaction.

However, when given a substantial financial incentive to get off the plane first the results were staggering. People would push and shove, people would get trapped in their seats as people went over the top and broke seats, others were kicked and punched - hell one was even bitten.

Human behaviour is, at times, mind boggling...

I'm not sure that's really relevant to the whole parachute debate as those studies were for obvious reasons carried out with the plane stationary on the ground and in one piece.

My point was, if people react that irrationally on the ground when they know they are safe and in experimental conditions (yeah, the ethics board forms were fun!) - imagine what happens in a real world situation, with genuine fear and terror.

Other evidence shows only those with appropriate training will do what people "expect" - as they automatically follow the training.

It is morbid though - but don't get me started on that aspect of psychology...

I actually read a book on this last week, the title escapes me, but essentially it was an examination of what people do in disaster situations. Apparently the most common reaction (much more than panic) is to do nothing whilst their brains try to process the situation and come up with a solution.

According to the book those people generally being more self-confident (or who have been trained with such a situation in mind so that they feel more confident in that situation) are the ones likely to take action (or stop deliberating earlier).

Apparently panic, in the sense of behaving hysterically, in a disaster situation is actually quite rare.

Quite common for people to freeze and not move. Bizzarely the ones next to fire exits are normally the ones found not to have moved.

[MK4 Slowride]

Podie said:

Quite common for people to freeze and not move. Bizzarely the ones next to fire exits are normally the ones found not to have moved.

Last time I was on a plane I sat by the escape & was asked if I was over 24 & had I read the instructions on what to do. Yes & Yes was my answer.

I find people with a fear of flying a bit silly, especially if they've never been on an aeroplane & had a bad experience.

[King Herald]

Podie said:

My point was, if people react that irrationally on the ground when they know they are safe and in experimental conditions (yeah, the ethics board forms were fun!) - imagine what happens in a real world situation, with genuine fear and terror.

Other evidence shows only those with appropriate training will do what people "expect" - as they automatically follow the training.

It is morbid though - but don't get me started on that aspect of psychology...

The reason we offshore folk do HUET (Helicopter Underwater Escape Training) courses isn't to make us safe in a crash, but so we might possibly join the 20% of people who survive such a crash, rather than join the 80% that perish.

Even in a controlled training environment; a swimming pool, with experts at hand and a re-breather strapped to your chest, it is still pretty bloody scary 'crash landing', then submerging, rotating, and hanging upside down in a fake chopper with water squirting up your nose.

In the real world, with crash impact, ice cold salt water, a terrified crew, far more people in with you, and possibly fuel or wreckage to contend with, or fire, I can see why no more than 1 in 5 people get out alive.

[youngsyr]

Podie said:

youngsyr said:

Podie said:

youngsyr said:

Podie said:

Several studies have been conducted in the past on passenger behaviour in simulated crash situations. Bearing in mind these people know they are safe at the time, it's hard to gauge a true reaction.

However, when given a substantial financial incentive to get off the plane first the results were staggering. People would push and shove, people would get trapped in their seats as people went over the top and broke seats, others were kicked and punched - hell one was even bitten.

Human behaviour is, at times, mind boggling...

I'm not sure that's really relevant to the whole parachute debate as those studies were for obvious reasons carried out with the plane stationary on the ground and in one piece.

My point was, if people react that irrationally on the ground when they know they are safe and in experimental conditions (yeah, the ethics board forms were fun!) - imagine what happens in a real world situation, with genuine fear and terror.

Other evidence shows only those with appropriate training will do what people "expect" - as they automatically follow the training.

It is morbid though - but don't get me started on that aspect of psychology...

I actually read a book on this last week, the title escapes me, but essentially it was an examination of what people do in disaster situations. Apparently the most common reaction (much more than panic) is to do nothing whilst their brains try to process the situation and come up with a solution.

According to the book those people generally being more self-confident (or who have been trained with such a situation in mind so that they feel more confident in that situation) are the ones likely to take action (or stop deliberating earlier).

Apparently panic, in the sense of behaving hysterically, in a disaster situation is actually quite rare.

Quite common for people to freeze and not move. Bizzarely the ones next to fire exits are normally the ones found not to have moved.

I can't remember the exact figure, but I believe the average amount of time the survivors of the 9/11 Twin Tower attacks spent gathering information in their immediate vicinity (making phone calls, watching news, etc) and therefore delaying their exit from the buildings was measured in minutes - and obviously they were the ones that made it out.

[Rach*]

Ayahuasca said:

asbo said:

Ayahuasca said:

Re the speculation about a collision with a drug-running plane - they normally fly at much low altitudes.

Where did that come from?

A few posts up!

Me, apparently a French pilot being interviewed on the radio suggested it.

[Podie]

MK4 Slowride said:

I find people with a fear of flying a bit silly, especially if they've never been on an aeroplane & had a bad experience.

I was once told by a University lecturer that there are four or five competing theories on why planes fly - and none of them completely agree with each other.

Whether it's true or not...

[CY88]

Guy who sits opposite me is an experienced sky diver with many hundreds of jumps under his belt, filming others at the same time. We have been discussing this. He said that up until the recent tighter security measures at airports, he and his friends always carried their chutes on commercial flights as hand luggage. They also favoured sitting near exits. Apparently they reckoned they could whip them on as quick as a life jacket, and that if they were sucked out of the cabin and remained conscious, there was a sporting chance of pulling the cord and have it open successfully. Better a slim chance than no chance?

[Ayahuasca]

CY88 said:

until the recent tighter security measures at airports, he and his friends always carried their chutes on commercial flights as hand luggage.

Is this banned now then?

[F i F]

Who else remembers the video footage of the off-licence fire which was set by some scrotes in order to nick some booze? The plan was basically to set a display stand near the entrance on fire, and then nip into the stock room in the confusion.

CCTV showed people queuing up for their scotch / beer / cigs / what have you whilst the flames were burning. People actually joined the queue and then stood in 4th or 5th place anxiously watching the flames get higher, the staff even kept on serving despite knowing the flames were getting higher and smoke was entering the premises.

At some point when it all got silly they decided to evacuate, through the smoke you could just see the scote who started it all dash out of the stockroom with his loot and then the picture flashed over as the whole place went up.

There was a time clock running, and whilst I forget that actual time it was not very long in total and certainly much less than a minute from somebody standing there in the queue thinking this looks a bit dodgy to total disaster.

Motto, If there is a problem get the fk out of there.

Second Motto, unless it's going to be worse outside, frying pan > fire scenario.

[Invisible man]

Podie said:

MK4 Slowride said:

I find people with a fear of flying a bit silly, especially if they've never been on an aeroplane & had a bad experience.

I was once told by a University lecturer that there are four or five competing theories on why planes fly - and none of them completely agree with each other.

Whether it's true or not...

true....five

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/wing/airfoil.html

Edited by Invisible man on Tuesday 2nd June 15:57

[Gargamel]

CY88 said:

Guy who sits opposite me is an experienced sky diver with many hundreds of jumps under his belt, filming others at the same time. We have been discussing this. He said that up until the recent tighter security measures at airports, he and his friends always carried their chutes on commercial flights as hand luggage. They also favoured sitting near exits. Apparently they reckoned they could whip them on as quick as a life jacket, and that if they were sucked out of the cabin and remained conscious, there was a sporting chance of pulling the cord and have it open successfully. Better a slim chance than no chance?

Fair enough, I wonder what realistic probability is for survival though, in this accident I can't see how it would help. How long are you likely to survive in the South Atlantic assuming you do make it to splash down. An hour or two at most I suspect?

[CY88]

Ayahuasca said:

CY88 said:

until the recent tighter security measures at airports, he and his friends always carried their chutes on commercial flights as hand luggage.

Is this banned now then?

He's just checked and confirmed you can again as of recently, as long as it fits in the standard size hand luggage. He also said that he'd keep it on the floor and not in the overhead locker.

[adam85]

Gargamel said:

Fair enough, I wonder what realistic probability is for survival though, in this accident I can't see how it would help. How long are you likely to survive in the South Atlantic assuming you do make it to splash down. An hour or two at most I suspect?

I would wager for a lot less time than that with the swell that is bound to be on that sea!