Are Pilots to 'proud' to call a mayday when crashing....?

[Tony*T3]

With the recent spate of aircrashes, there seems to be a worrying lack of communication from the planes. Have pilots become too 'proud' to call a mayday/SOS when the st hits the fan? Seems to me the French Atlantic plane must have been in trouble for a number of minutes before crashing, yet nothing from the pilots on the airwaves. Same with the Camoran crash. I know their busy when stuff happens but even just opening the mic's and transmitting whats happening should be second nature. Have the pilots become to 'scared' to ask for help or declare emergencies? What about an automated system?

Also, why do we rely on the black box of info on plane crashes? A plane could easily send a data burst with all the required information as soon as systems detect parameters out of the normal.

We may never know what really happened to the Air France plane, unless another plane is lost in similar conditions.

[superlightr]

Tony*T3 said:

Have the pilots become to 'scared' to ask for help or declare emergencies? What about an automated system?

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

What 'help' could be given when the a major failure occurs? None.

They would have been too busy trying to rescue the aircraft (save thier lives) to talk whilst floating in mid air and banging against the cockpit and controls with st hitting them in the eyes and face and being scared stless.

In a 'controled' emergency where external help may be given in the recovery you may have the time to 'talk' ie who, where, what for a search and rescue attempt after you have hit the deck but its fly the thing that is the priority.

[Eric Mc]

Tony*T3 said:

With the recent spate of aircrashes, there seems to be a worrying lack of communication from the planes. Have pilots become too 'proud' to call a mayday/SOS when the st hits the fan? Seems to me the French Atlantic plane must have been in trouble for a number of minutes before crashing, yet nothing from the pilots on the airwaves. Same with the Camoran crash. I know their busy when stuff happens but even just opening the mic's and transmitting whats happening should be second nature. Have the pilots become to 'scared' to ask for help or declare emergencies? What about an automated system?

Also, why do we rely on the black box of info on plane crashes? A plane could easily send a data burst with all the required information as soon as systems detect parameters out of the normal.

We may never know what really happened to the Air France plane, unless another plane is lost in similar conditions.

No, they are not TOO proud. They are just too busy or events happen too quickly for them to broadcast a message. How can they describe what's happening when they don't always know what's happening themselves? As it is, there have been many occasions when the pilot or co-pilot has been just about able to broadcast a garbled message which has been of limited use to investigators. An example would be the Aer Lingus Viscount which crashed into the Irish Sea en-route to London in 1968. All the pilot could get out was "Spinning - descending rapidly".

Your second point is based on a fallacy perpetuated by the ignorant and lazy media. Air crash investigators do not RELY on the "black box" (which isn't black, of course). They use the data they can recover from it to HELP them undersatnd what the aircraft was up to in the moments leading up to the accident. Even if all the data stored in the recorder can be recovered, it still doesn't always provide the ultimate cause ogf the accident. In reality, data is often corrupted or damaged and may not be complete - depending on how badly damaged the recorders are.

The technology for sending "data bursts" (as you call it) is in its infancy at the moment and no doubt may one day be very normal for airliners. At the moment, the infrastructure for sending such data and storing it has not yet been built up and may be many years away. As it is, the only clue we currently have as to what happened to the Air France A330 is the fact that a limited amount of "data burst" is in use - but only by some airlines and not on the vast majority of airliners in service. If this had been an older generation of airliner we'd have had nothing at all.

[bluetone]

I imagine that eventually the 'black box' info' will be transmitted off-aircraft in realtime for storage/analysis on the ground.

[Eric Mc]

bluetone said:

I imagine that eventually the 'black box' info' will be transmitted off-aircraft in realtime for storage/analysis on the ground.

Perhaps - but maybe not afor a long time. And I reckon that, even when it becomes practical, some airlines will delay implementing the system on cost grounds.

Also, where would the data be transmitted to - the airline itself or some central world "data storage centre" where all the thousands of airliners flying in the air at any one one time are constantly feeding streams of data back to this one storage point?

It sounds good in theory but I think the implementation of such a system would be extremely complex.

[mondeoman]

Eric Mc said:

bluetone said:

I imagine that eventually the 'black box' info' will be transmitted off-aircraft in realtime for storage/analysis on the ground.

Perhaps - but maybe not afor a long time. And I reckon that, even when it becomes practical, some airlines will delay implementing the system on cost grounds.

Also, where would the data be transmitted to - the airline itself or some central world "data storage centre" where all the thousands of airliners flying in the air at any one one time are constantly feeding streams of data back to this one storage point?

It sounds good in theory but I think the implementation of such a system would be extremely complex.

If the guberment can store and monitor every phone call and email, then the data capture & storage from planes should be a piece of peace

[Eric Mc]

I don't think so.

Are you suggesting a central storage facility for this data?

If so, where would it be and who would manage it?

[crofty1984]

Could you have a button that sends the last half hour of data to a central reciever (or even a nearby plane using the same system)?
Just a second to reah across and bash the button as you're going in the drink.
Is that kind of technology viable?

[Smart roadster]

The big problem is making the sirlines fit the system. If it cost £100K, it wil need to be certified to be fitted to an airliner, and you have 100 planes that is £10 mil per company.

[mondeoman]

Eric Mc said:

I don't think so.

Are you suggesting a central storage facility for this data?

If so, where would it be and who would manage it?

I was being facetious .......

Ho hum

[Eric Mc]

You may have been - but others asked a similar question before - so I thought it deserved a straight reply.

I think the logistics of recording and storing the massive volume of data would p[reclude it ever being a vaible system - especially when 99.9% of the time the data would not be needed.

And there is no guarantee that the data would be recoverable from wherever it was stored. If it was in the hands of the airlines, I could see many circumstances where they would be reluctant to release it. If it's in the hands of governments (as ATC data is), then trying to decide who would store it and look after it and for how long would be an issue (as it is with all databases).

[Bluebarge]

Tony*T3 said:

With the recent spate of aircrashes, there seems to be a worrying lack of communication from the planes. Have pilots become too 'proud' to call a mayday/SOS when the st hits the fan? Seems to me the French Atlantic plane must have been in trouble for a number of minutes before crashing, yet nothing from the pilots on the airwaves. Same with the Camoran crash. I know their busy when stuff happens but even just opening the mic's and transmitting whats happening should be second nature. Have the pilots become to 'scared' to ask for help or declare emergencies? What about an automated system?

Also, why do we rely on the black box of info on plane crashes? A plane could easily send a data burst with all the required information as soon as systems detect parameters out of the normal.

We may never know what really happened to the Air France plane, unless another plane is lost in similar conditions.

Daftest post of the year. Do you think a pilot with 200 people on his plane would refuse to transmit a Mayday because he's a bit embarrassed about crashing? And would a Mayday have made any difference? Both planes were seen to drop off the radar screens so ATC immediately knew they were in trouble.

[Eric Mc]

Bluebarge said:

Tony*T3 said:

With the recent spate of aircrashes, there seems to be a worrying lack of communication from the planes. Have pilots become too 'proud' to call a mayday/SOS when the st hits the fan? Seems to me the French Atlantic plane must have been in trouble for a number of minutes before crashing, yet nothing from the pilots on the airwaves. Same with the Camoran crash. I know their busy when stuff happens but even just opening the mic's and transmitting whats happening should be second nature. Have the pilots become to 'scared' to ask for help or declare emergencies? What about an automated system?

Also, why do we rely on the black box of info on plane crashes? A plane could easily send a data burst with all the required information as soon as systems detect parameters out of the normal.

We may never know what really happened to the Air France plane, unless another plane is lost in similar conditions.

Daftest post of the year. Do you think a pilot with 200 people on his plane would refuse to transmit a Mayday because he's a bit embarrassed about crashing? And would a Mayday have made any difference? Both planes were seen to drop off the radar screens so ATC immediately knew they were in trouble.

Nope. The Air France A330 didn't "drop off" (I presume that's a technical term) anybody's radar screen. At the time it disappeared it wasn't covered by any radar.

[mcdjl]

crofty1984 said:

Could you have a button that sends the last half hour of data to a central reciever (or even a nearby plane using the same system)?
Just a second to reah across and bash the button as you're going in the drink.
Is that kind of technology viable?

I'd rather the pilot was pressing the buttons that would gte the plane flying than telling someone why it had crashed....personnaly speaking.

[Eric Mc]

mcdjl said:

crofty1984 said:

Could you have a button that sends the last half hour of data to a central reciever (or even a nearby plane using the same system)?
Just a second to reah across and bash the button as you're going in the drink.
Is that kind of technology viable?

I'd rather the pilot was pressing the buttons that would gte the plane flying than telling someone why it had crashed....personnaly speaking.

Aahh... the very usfeul "Anti-Crash" button. I'm amazed so few pilots ever remember to press it.

[mcdjl]

Eric Mc said:

mcdjl said:

crofty1984 said:

Could you have a button that sends the last half hour of data to a central reciever (or even a nearby plane using the same system)?
Just a second to reah across and bash the button as you're going in the drink.
Is that kind of technology viable?

I'd rather the pilot was pressing the buttons that would gte the plane flying than telling someone why it had crashed....personnaly speaking.

Aahh... the very usfeul "Anti-Crash" button. I'm amazed so few pilots ever remember to press it.

well...ok then maybe just pushing all the possibly useful buttons/ levers that might keep the plane in the air rather than one that definitely won't

[paddyhasneeds]

Eric Mc said:

I don't think so.

Are you suggesting a central storage facility for this data?

If so, where would it be and who would manage it?

I thought British Airways (and presumably others) already did this via telemetry?

I'm sure I saw this on a documentary once, or perhaps I'm getting mixed up as I recall they also had a system of "DAT like" tapes that they used to get plane systems info/feedback much more quickly than they would through scheduled maintenance.

[Eric Mc]

paddyhasneeds said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't think so.

Are you suggesting a central storage facility for this data?

If so, where would it be and who would manage it?

I thought British Airways (and presumably others) already did this via telemetry?

I'm sure I saw this on a documentary once, or perhaps I'm getting mixed up as I recall they also had a system of "DAT like" tapes that they used to get plane systems info/feedback much more quickly than they would through scheduled maintenance.

BA certainly have an on-board data storage system. The latest aircraft may have some telemtry capability too. The Air France A330 certainly seemed to be sending some data electroniocally back to HQ in Paris.

However, this would not be available throughout their entire fleets and the data is collected for management and maintenance purposes only. The storage devices used on the aircraft are not hardened for crash survivability.

[Frederick]

I thought the AF Airbus sent panic warning messages to base via ACARS showing that systems were failing... ACARS is tried and tested kit so it shouldn't be too difficult to modify it to do a "status burst" of information every 10 mins or so

[ipwn]

This thread should have ended after the first reply....