US Extradition Treaty - an Act of Treason

[Disco_Dale]

Zod said:

This case is a horrible example of breaking a butterfly on a wheel. The guy is harmless and did no damage other than exposing some US sysadmins as negligent.

Having read a lttle about the case that's how I see it too.

If the networks belonging to the defence agnecies of the biggest superpower in the world were vulnerable to what he managed to exploit then thier people should hang their heads in shame.

The fact we've become so subservient to the US that we stand for this without so much as a whimper tells you everything you need to know.

We're not even the 51st state, cos we're not allowed guns!

[fluffnik]

Zod said:

This case is a horrible example of breaking a butterfly on a wheel. The guy is harmless and did no damage other than exposing some US sysadmins as negligent.

Demonstrating that the US military can't be trusted with sharp objects is what has pissed them off...

Our government should not be throwing its citizens to such petulant children.

[fluffnik]

Disco_Dale said:

The fact we've become so subservient to the US that we stand for this without so much as a whimper tells you everything you need to know.

...that we are governed by traitorous knaves.

We must sack them all.

[Jimbeaux]

fluffnik said:

I think that signing the US Extradition Treaty which puts the interests of a foreign power ahead of the rights of our citizens and is asymmetric in favour of the USA was an Act of Treason.

Do you?

Yes, I agree. Perhaps you might want to apply it only to your Chav population. That might allow for compensation against its one-sidedness.

[Jimbeaux]

s2art said:

Lefty Guns said:

I think if somebody has committed a crime against the US they ought to be tried in the US.

Hmmm. What if what they did isnt a crime in the UK?

That is a good point. As usual, legality is fighting the last war and has no precedence here. The laws were designed before one could commit such tangible crimes from afar.

[Jimbeaux]

fluffnik said:

Lefty Guns said:

We're talking about Gary McKinnon right?

He's a fkwit. And he deserves to be tried and punished (if guilty of course) by the US.

He might deserve a bit of community service, tops.

His only "crime", if such it was, was to expose the rank incompetence of the American military.

It's not like he's responsible for the deaths of countless innocents, like the treasonous twunt who signed the treaty.

I understand your need to voice your obvious disdain for all thing Yank whenever you get the chance, but come on. I think he should be tried in the U.K., I agree with that; however, picking up litter along the road is a bit too touchy feely a punishment IMO. He may not have killed anyone this time, the crime is still the crime though.

[Jimbeaux]

Halb said:

beanbag said:

Yes. How do you think we would react if we found some American nerd was hacking our government systems, stealing information and making it public?

Is that what he did? I thought he broke in and left some rude things for the officials. I thought he was looking for UFOs. The US was rather lucky that it was a UFOologist rather than a terrorist.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6072959645...

Again, he was likely not at really sensitive systems just fiddling where he shouldn't. The really hard crooks have already been hired to cyber-protect the truly sensitive items.

[Jimbeaux]

amsie said:

Hi all,

I used to work with Gary some 10 years ago in IT, for a spell of about 6 months. He was a very nice bloke, good laugh down the pub, always eager to tell you how he had hacked your workstation whilst you were away from the desk, but in all honestly, he wasnt a top hacker by any means. He used very simple hacks. He was what I call a conspiracy theorist type person, always going on about the US and Aliens etc.

From what I understand of his "hacking", and im not a hacker in anyway, he was using packet sniffers on devices on the US networks, and listening to traffic. Nothing more than that.

My feeling is that the US are going to make an example of him, and the guy is pretty harmless, and im not claiming to be his best friend but he is a decent nice bloke, very socialist in his views about 3rd world, helping the poorer etc. The US are definately overusing their powers here for what is nothing more than a schoolboy hack into their systems.

Im dissapointed to hear the news today regarding him, and I hope he gets a fair trial over there, and they see it in the context it probably was.

He has never asked not to be punished, he's asked to be punished in the context the hacks were, after all, he didnt try to set off any nukes, put any malicious code in their systems or delete any data.

He will get a fair trial. Juries over here always take folk's side in government cases. The likely outcome is that he may get a midlevel job out of the affair.

[Jimbeaux]

Oakey said:

Pesty said:

He did the crime. He has admited it. Send him to teh US to face trial and if he gets time let him serve it there why should we pay for it.

But he hasn't done a crime in this country, has he?

That is a good question. What are the laws in the U.K. regarding knowingly hacking into another nation's cyber goods?

[amsie]

Jimbeaux said:

fluffnik said:

I think that signing the US Extradition Treaty which puts the interests of a foreign power ahead of the rights of our citizens and is asymmetric in favour of the USA was an Act of Treason.

Do you?

Yes, I agree. Perhaps you might want to apply it only to your Chav population. That might allow for compensation against its one-sidedness.

lol, as opposed to WTPT? :-)

I hope he does my friend, I hope he does.

[Oakey]

Jimbeaux said:

Oakey said:

Pesty said:

He did the crime. He has admited it. Send him to teh US to face trial and if he gets time let him serve it there why should we pay for it.

But he hasn't done a crime in this country, has he?

That is a good question. What are the laws in the U.K. regarding knowingly hacking into another nation's cyber goods?

I think it's giving people too much credit to call it 'hacking' when really it's down to the incompetence of the people who haven't bothered to change the fdefault passwords.

[jeff m]

Jimbeaux said:

Oakey said:

Pesty said:

He did the crime. He has admited it. Send him to teh US to face trial and if he gets time let him serve it there why should we pay for it.

But he hasn't done a crime in this country, has he?

That is a good question. What are the laws in the U.K. regarding knowingly hacking into another nation's cyber goods?

That has to be ilegal in UK, most things are.
The point is extradition with out prima facia.
It's a little bit gritty because UK wanted some naughty Irish people a few years ago but the US would never sign a reciprical extradition treaty so UK never got it's terrorists. I think one was eventually signed. Too late to be of any use.

Extradition can be tricky, for example if I commit tax evasion and then go to a country that does not have income tax the prima facia evidence would not support a crime in that country as there is no tax to evade and therefore is not a crime.
The other problem is that the US has the death penalty in some states and at Federal level which can delay extradition for a long time. Now there is torture to consider, the lawyers would use that too for reasons not to allow their client to be extradited.

This one way extradition treaty designed for terrorists is being misused, what a suprise.

If they used the correct proceedure for this kid nobody would complain.

I haven't checked recently but in a British passport it use to say this passport affords the holder the protection of the crown.
New translation must be "you're on your own buddy"

[fluffnik]

jeff m said:

The other problem is that the US has the death penalty in some states and at Federal level which can delay extradition for a long time. Now there is torture to consider, the lawyers would use that too for reasons not to allow their client to be extradited.

As an aside I don't think we should be extraditing anyone to anywhere with a death penalty.

[cs02rm0]

He just loggged into some computers on the internet with default passwords? Hardly 'hacking'. A five year old could do the same thing today. Even calling it a crime seems over the top to me.

[unrepentant]

fluffnik said:

jeff m said:

The other problem is that the US has the death penalty in some states and at Federal level which can delay extradition for a long time. Now there is torture to consider, the lawyers would use that too for reasons not to allow their client to be extradited.

As an aside I don't think we should be extraditing anyone to anywhere with a death penalty.

IIRC correctly EU law forbids the extradition of anyone to any country that has the death penalty. There must be an exemption for the USA but presumably they have to undertake not to execute the hackers, bankers etc...

[fluffnik]

Jimbeaux said:

fluffnik said:

His only "crime", if such it was, was to expose the rank incompetence of the American military.

It's not like he's responsible for the deaths of countless innocents, like the treasonous twunt who signed the treaty.

I understand your need to voice your obvious disdain for all thing Yank whenever you get the chance, but come on.

I dislike imperialism, wherever it arises.

Jimbeaux said:

I think he should be tried in the U.K., I agree with that; however, picking up litter along the road is a bit too touchy feely a punishment IMO. He may not have killed anyone this time, the crime is still the crime though.

All he did was wander around unsecured areas - I see no crime.

[Jasandjules]

A British Citizen who commits no offence under British Law whilst on British soil should face no sanction for he has violated no law.

[esselte]

Jasandjules said:

A British Citizen who commits no offence under British Law whilst on British soil should face no sanction for he has violated no law.

Is "hacking" allowed in the UK? Serious question,not being sarky.

[CommanderJameson]

esselte said:

Jasandjules said:

A British Citizen who commits no offence under British Law whilst on British soil should face no sanction for he has violated no law.

Is "hacking" allowed in the UK? Serious question,not being sarky.

No.

[CommanderJameson]

fluffnik said:

Jimbeaux said:

fluffnik said:

His only "crime", if such it was, was to expose the rank incompetence of the American military.

It's not like he's responsible for the deaths of countless innocents, like the treasonous twunt who signed the treaty.

I understand your need to voice your obvious disdain for all thing Yank whenever you get the chance, but come on.

I dislike imperialism, wherever it arises.

Jimbeaux said:

I think he should be tried in the U.K., I agree with that; however, picking up litter along the road is a bit too touchy feely a punishment IMO. He may not have killed anyone this time, the crime is still the crime though.

All he did was wander around unsecured areas - I see no crime.

If you leave your front door open, fluff, can I have a wander around your house? If you leave your car unlocked, can I sit in it?

And anyway, he knew fine well that what he was doing was wrong. He's got a mild dose of Aspergers, which isn't anything that would convince a jury that he's got difficulty distinguishing right and wrong.