Lisbon Treaty , Yes or No or maybe

[Mon Ami Mate]

It's fascinating watching the BBC desperate to portray this as a Conservative crisis. Brown lies to the nation and refuses to give us the referendum we are promised. Blair manoevers himself into pole position to be unelected President of the USE. Yet somehow it's a Conservative crisis. Right...

[Shoot Blair]

Mon Ami Mate said:

It's fascinating watching the BBC desperate to portray this as a Conservative crisis. Brown lies to the nation and refuses to give us the referendum we are promised. Blair manoevers himself into pole position to be unelected President of the USE. Yet somehow it's a Conservative crisis. Right...

It's one reason I flatly refuse to have a television in my house

[nonegreen]

hidetheelephants said:

nonegreen said:

sleep envy said:

nonegreen said:

stuff

stuff

I think the devil is in the detail really. For example I believe the intention of the Thatcher government was to address the skills issues by the creation of an overarching strategy to give the private sector the means and the power to train and certificate the future workforce and endow them with skills needed for future cutting edge performance. As a result of interference from senior civil servants the detail has resulted in a thoroughly watered down system which in the fullness of time has achived the following

The qualification process is often longer the the pre 88 system.

The currency of new qualifications is still not keeping pace with change in technology

Far from moving control from examining bodies and colleges of FE to industry, the policy has resulted in further strengthening of quangos such as LSCs and QCA. Together with a separate inspecorate and of course the underpinning of a department.

Control of education and training is now less effective than in the 60s. As a result LSCs have promised beyond budget, leaving at least one college left without a building to teach in.

I picked the above example because the nature of FE and training is such that the politicians are probably commited to its success. There is no agenda for failure unlike say nuclear power or defense. Despite this the standards of education have fallen consistently over the last 20 years. Training standards have fallen to the point where people gain qualifications with no training taking place. (On occasion without the candidate even being aware they were a candidate). Far from a reduction in the admin costs of educating and training the workforce we have seen an enormous increase in the infrastructure. In truth a new infrastructure has been built while the old redundant infrastructure such as LEAs has been left in place despite serving no unique or useful purpose.

In conclusion, the politicians started with good intentions, the civil servants have implimented the policy to the letter, of course taking into account the need to preserve certain elements which the politicians wanted to become extinct. The result is a mess. On closer examination its a mess that fulfills the purpose of proliferating the public sector, if possible making it even more essential just to maintain the status quo. Its clever, very clever but to anyone who has observed it from close up, its utterly tranparent. The politicians are not in control.

But this is an illustration of no-one being in control; a hierarchy of civil servants administering their little bits of paper with no measurably useful output. This isn't conspiracy or subversion on the part of the bureaucrats, merely tangible evidence of the fact that the one thing incompetents fear is making a decision; in this world nobody gets fired for doing nothing, and doing nothing means no mistakes. When the danger of a decision looms, refer upwards, who will in turn send back down for a position paper and 'consultation'; by the time this inexorable process has completed its deathless cycle, the original (non)protagonists have left for another nonjob in the adjacent office. And repeat ad nauseam.

Of course its not conspiracy. My original point was that the Lisbon treaty substitutes one group of incompetents for another. I dont believe in conspiracy. There is some subversion as the WR party have learned to speak green and there are many many subversive greens throughout the public sector. Again it is not a conspiracy but merely a case of birds of a feather etc. Hence the BBC is wall to wall climate liars.

[JagLover]

Mon Ami Mate said:

It's fascinating watching the BBC desperate to portray this as a Conservative crisis. Brown lies to the nation and refuses to give us the referendum we are promised. Blair manoevers himself into pole position to be unelected President of the USE. Yet somehow it's a Conservative crisis. Right...

The liberal media seem to be getting desperate. They know this is an important conference where the Conservatives can set out their agenda for government, so are desperately trying to manufacture a 'split on Europe'

[s2art]

Bugger! The Czechs have caved in.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe...

[Shoot Blair]

s2art said:

Bugger! The Czechs have caved in.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe...

Where next?

Is this the one that also bans Euroskeptic parties? Or was that something distorted by my TFH.

Is this on the news yet?

[Shay HTFC]

odyssey2200 said:

At least the battles on both fronts can be proven to have happened.
Education the kids in to the local events is better than teaching them about a global fairy tale.

The problem is it that the powers that be consider MMGW as fact (or at least portray it that way)

[Balmoral Green]

JagLover said:

desperately trying to manufacture a 'split on Europe'

And it's not even like they have to anyway, it's a given, the Conservatives have always been split on Europe, so what's new?

[An Oasis]

fatboy b said:

What is the Lisbon treaty anyway?

It means we contribute 3.6 Billion PA and for what? So Johnny Foreigner can dictate what we should do...and the only people who benefit are the politicians, ferk off, get me out of there.

Just look at all the huge mistakes they've made - putting too much money into various sectors and countries only for everything to go tits up, it's a bloody joke. Small government is good big government is...

[Spiritual_Beggar]

An Oasis said:

fatboy b said:

What is the Lisbon treaty anyway?

It means we contribute 3.6 Billion PA and for what? So Johnny Foreigner can dictate what we should do...and the only people who benefit are the politicians, ferk off, get me out of there.

Just look at all the huge mistakes they've made - putting too much money into various sectors and countries only for everything to go tits up, it's a bloody joke. Small government is good big government is...

The people of Europe are going to get screwed by the Politicians in Power. I can't see how the benefits outweigh the potential problems and possibilities for abusing the powers installed.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but looking at how this Labour Government have slid down the 'Communist like' road with all the Rules & Laws, and telling us you can't have this, or can't do that, I have bleak prospects that a single EU Parliament will be much better. And with Europe still such a fractured economy with Wealth finely distributed, there is always going to be resentment between the nation's people.

[BrassMan]

s2art said:

Germany because its cheaper than conquest. France because its less embarrassing than being invaded, Italy because they cant govern themselves, The poorer countries (PIIGS etc) because they get subsidised, the UK initially because its been a 500 year policy to prevent a single power facing us across the channel/north sea.

I'm 'avin' that.

Or, from the other direction (and being simplistic). We know what Blair, Brown and the EU are like, so it stretches credability that the Lisbon Treaty will be a good thing if they favour it.

[An Oasis]

s2art said:

Bugger! The Czechs have caved in.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe...

FFS anyone have the time to start a party? Named GUTFOOH.

[emicen]

Bit late to the party voting on this one, but my it's a close contest at the moment

[B Oeuf]

An Oasis said:

fatboy b said:

What is the Lisbon treaty anyway?

It means we contribute 3.6 Billion PA and for what? So Johnny Foreigner can dictate what we should do...and the only people who benefit are the politicians, ferk off, get me out of there.

Just look at all the huge mistakes they've made - putting too much money into various sectors and countries only for everything to go tits up, it's a bloody joke. Small government is good big government is...

France contributes more.......but gets much more back. Anyone know the true figures?

[AndrewW-G]

B Oeuf said:

France contributes more.......but gets much more back. Anyone know the true figures?

figures from wikipedia for 2006 so pinch of salt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statis...

Germany, 22,218,438,941
France, 17,303,107,859
Italy, 14,359,479,157
UK, 13,739,900,046

ETA: official EU figures for 2006These do not include all grants, only payments back to states


Country - into EU - out of EU

Germany........22,218,438,941 : 12,242,400,000
France.........17,303,107,859 : 13,496,200,000
Italy..........14,359,479,157 : 10,922,300,000
United Kingdom 13,739,900,046 : 8,294,200,000
Spain...........8,957,286,488 : 12,883,000,000
Netherlands.....5,552,933,781 : 2,190,400,000
Belgium.........4,035,286,807 : 5,625,100,000
Sweden..........2,832 862 800 : 1,573,400,000
Austria.........2,308,432,030 : 1,830,100,000
Denmark.........2,130.860.212 : 1,501,900,000
Poland..........2,099,087,114 : 5,305,600,000
Greece..........1,882,611,879 : 6,833,700,000
Finland.........1,544,832,284 : 1,280,400,000
Portugal........1,443,049,602 : 3,634,800,000
Ireland.........1,341,281,313 : 2,461,800,000
Hungary.........1,003,119,411 : 1,842,200,000
Czech Republic....932,392,859 : 1,330,000,000
Slovakia..........393,148,777 : 696,200,000
Slovenia..........299,993,572 : 406,000,000
Luxembourg........241,439,011 : 1,194,800,000
Lithuania.........221,997,405 : 799,800,000
Cyprus............144,556,416 : 239,600,000
Latvia............115,205,431 : 402,600,000
Estonia...........100,756,308 : 300,000,000
Malta..............57,409,269 : 157,000,000

Edited by AndrewW-G on Wednesday 7th October 10:06

[s2art]

AndrewW-G said:

B Oeuf said:

France contributes more.......but gets much more back. Anyone know the true figures?

figures from wikipedia for 2006 so pinch of salt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_statis...

Germany, 22,218,438,941
France, 17,303,107,859
Italy, 14,359,479,157
UK, 13,739,900,046

ETA: official EU figures for 2006These do not include all grants, only payments back to states


Country - into EU - out of EU

Germany........22,218,438,941 : 12,242,400,000
France.........17,303,107,859 : 13,496,200,000
Italy..........14,359,479,157 : 10,922,300,000
United Kingdom 13,739,900,046 : 8,294,200,000
Spain...........8,957,286,488 : 12,883,000,000
Netherlands.....5,552,933,781 : 2,190,400,000
Belgium.........4,035,286,807 : 5,625,100,000
Sweden..........2,832 862 800 : 1,573,400,000
Austria.........2,308,432,030 : 1,830,100,000
Denmark.........2,130.860.212 : 1,501,900,000
Poland..........2,099,087,114 : 5,305,600,000
Greece..........1,882,611,879 : 6,833,700,000
Finland.........1,544,832,284 : 1,280,400,000
Portugal........1,443,049,602 : 3,634,800,000
Ireland.........1,341,281,313 : 2,461,800,000
Hungary.........1,003,119,411 : 1,842,200,000
Czech Republic....932,392,859 : 1,330,000,000
Slovakia..........393,148,777 : 696,200,000
Slovenia..........299,993,572 : 406,000,000
Luxembourg........241,439,011 : 1,194,800,000
Lithuania.........221,997,405 : 799,800,000
Cyprus............144,556,416 : 239,600,000
Latvia............115,205,431 : 402,600,000
Estonia...........100,756,308 : 300,000,000
Malta..............57,409,269 : 157,000,000

Edited by AndrewW-G on Wednesday 7th October 10:06

And of course, Bliar chose to increase our contributions by giving up the rebate Thatcher got. So a lot more now.

[AndrewW-G]

Could Blairs reversal of Thatchers rebate, be seen as a bribe for his possible new role of "supreme leader of the united republic of Europe".

After all whats tens of billions of pounds in taxpayers money when he's going to put another million or two in his pocket and get to rule the entire continent

Edited by AndrewW-G on Wednesday 7th October 14:42

[JagLover]

Balmoral Green said:

JagLover said:

desperately trying to manufacture a 'split on Europe'

And it's not even like they have to anyway, it's a given, the Conservatives have always been split on Europe, so what's new?

Once

The intake of new MPs and party activists etc tend to all be Euro-Sceptic now. Apart from Ken Clarke and a few old Tory grandees there aren't any Euro Enthusiasts left in the party.

[hidetheelephants]

AndrewW-G said:

Could Blairs reversal of Thatchers rebate, be seen as a bribe for his possible new role of "supreme leader of the united republic of Europe".

After all whats tens of billions of pounds in taxpayers money when he's going to put another million or two in his pocket and get to rule the entire continent

Even if he gets the job he's not ruling anything beyond the door of his doubtless huge office suite(are they providing a palace?); the president's job is to do little more than smile, shake hands and act as an international snake oil salesman, so Bliar is a shoo-in.

[Halb]

AndrewW-G said:

Could Blairs reversal of Thatchers rebate, be seen as a bribe for his possible new role of "supreme leader of the united republic of Europe".

After all whats tens of billions of pounds in taxpayers money when he's going to put another million or two in his pocket and get to rule the entire continent

Edited by AndrewW-G on Wednesday 7th October 14:42

Rebate is 3billion pounds. Which would move the UK into third place.