Whats wrong with the lib dems

[Halb]

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

Lib Dems are no more worse than NL or Torys. But the good thing aboot them is that they have less of a party whip forcing MPs into the party line. The Lds might be considered a group of smaller paties, since each MP has more leeway than their colleagues in the other two.

Edited by Halb on Thursday 29th October 14:16

[XitUp]

s2art said:

XitUp said:

A bit. Show me a party that isn't.

Same with the EU issue. We would be fked if we pulled out and none of the parties are talking reform of the EU much.

Why fked?

Trade mainly.

Although, like I said, the EU needs reforming in a huge way.

[mybrainhurts]

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

[Halb]

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

A bit. Show me a party that isn't.

Same with the EU issue. We would be fked if we pulled out and none of the parties are talking reform of the EU much.

Why fked?

Trade mainly.

Although, like I said, the EU needs reforming in a huge way.

Errm, yes we run a trade deficit with the EU. How would pulling out do any harm?

[mybrainhurts]

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

Take it as a Mission Impossible, old boy...

[Halb]

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

Take it as a Mission Impossible, old boy...

Well....certainly not mission: oh that was a push-over for sure.
What would you do/prefer?

[mybrainhurts]

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

Take it as a Mission Impossible, old boy...

Well....certainly not mission: oh that was a push-over for sure.
What would you do/prefer?

I am almost ready to take over as benign dictator for life...

I just have to put the finishing touches to my list. Have I spelt Mandelson correctly?

[XitUp]

s2art said:

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

A bit. Show me a party that isn't.

Same with the EU issue. We would be fked if we pulled out and none of the parties are talking reform of the EU much.

Why fked?

Trade mainly.

Although, like I said, the EU needs reforming in a huge way.

Errm, yes we run a trade deficit with the EU. How would pulling out do any harm?

Because any of the businesses who have factories here to take advantage of EU tax breaks would leave.

[Halb]

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

Take it as a Mission Impossible, old boy...

Well....certainly not mission: oh that was a push-over for sure.
What would you do/prefer?

I am almost ready to take over as benign dictator for life...

I just have to put the finishing touches to my list. Have I spelt Mandelson correctly?

Ahh, for you chief enforcement officer/villain?

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

A bit. Show me a party that isn't.

Same with the EU issue. We would be fked if we pulled out and none of the parties are talking reform of the EU much.

Why fked?

Trade mainly.

Although, like I said, the EU needs reforming in a huge way.

Errm, yes we run a trade deficit with the EU. How would pulling out do any harm?

Because any of the businesses who have factories here to take advantage of EU tax breaks would leave.

What EU tax breaks?

[jesusbuiltmycar]

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Well said. Would you really want 15 to 30 BNP MPs?

Edited by jesusbuiltmycar on Thursday 29th October 15:09

[Halb]

jesusbuiltmycar said:

Well said. Would you really want 15 to 30 BNP MPs?

Edited by jesusbuiltmycar on Thursday 29th October 15:09

Personally...no. But I would really want a fair representation in Parliament of the electorate who can be arsed to get up and vote. I may find the views of some parties distasteful, but I don't have the right to fix the system to deny portions of society an unequally small share in their chance to vote in our government...that is New Labour thinking...

[mybrainhurts]

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

mybrainhurts said:

Halb said:

XitUp said:

Lib Dems are the only party who would reform the electoral process so I like them for that. I don't like a lot of their policies, but then I don't like a lot of most party's.

Reform is also one of the things I like them for, along with a strong decentralisation ethos...will we see it though? Unlikely.

You mean proportional representation, do you?

The system that results in hung governments, with minorities like the greens or BNP holding the balance of power. Oh, great...show me the door.

Decentralisation..? Look at your local council. Do you REALY want them to have more power? The worst nightmare, ever, that would be, in my neck of the woods.

Edited by mybrainhurts on Thursday 29th October 13:53

Yip PR is exactly what I mean. I think there should be a fully elected second chamber that is 100% PR.You don't need PR for a hung government, we may have one of those in the commons in 6 months
And even thought that is not what I meant by de-centralisation, yes it is better for there to be less power in Westminster...you don't like your council? Then stand for election and help change it...I did Running for councillor is a lot less costly than running for Parliament.

HO HO HO

I'll take that as a no then. I thought so...

Take it as a Mission Impossible, old boy...

Well....certainly not mission: oh that was a push-over for sure.
What would you do/prefer?

I am almost ready to take over as benign dictator for life...

I just have to put the finishing touches to my list. Have I spelt Mandelson correctly?

Ahh, for you chief enforcement officer/villain?

Watch it...remember the list..

[XitUp]

s2art said:

What EU tax breaks?

Article 90 etc.

It's just a shame so much money is given to farmers etc for doing sod all.

[mybrainhurts]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

What EU tax breaks?

Article 90 etc.

It's just a shame so much money is given to farmers etc the EU by the UK for doing sod all.

Edited for correctitude...

[XitUp]

Haha, I'd say both are pretty accurate.

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

What EU tax breaks?

Article 90 etc.

It's just a shame so much money is given to farmers etc for doing sod all.

So you are saying that of all the money we pass to the EU, the tax breaks in the UK being a fraction of that, is an advantage?????

[XitUp]

Nope. I'm saying the companies from outside the EU who operate here would probably not want to stay if we left the EU.

[Shoot Blair]

I agree, the Lib Dems appear to be the most totalitarian "know best" out of the parties.

The EU is an expensive experiment doomed to failure for a number of reasons. The nature of the programme, means that we spend a lot more than we get out. Despite our financial situation. Giving political power to anyone gives them the opportunity to control people. Rather than more people shufflnig more money, we need something like "The Common Market" which facilitates trade.

The EU is a fashionable opportunity for wannabes to grow themselves power and control. The central problem is that they mistakenly believe that more control and red tape will improve productivity. This is historically proven everywhere to be false. We do need to work together, but we do not need a huge know-best government preciding over the whole thing, wasting money on expensive, eutopian projects.

The EU is at best an expensive luxury and at worse a crippling parasite.

The Euro is a great idea, but if it is strong relative to other countries, it cripples the hell out of the crap states. Governmental control over things like QE and interest rates are vital to manouvering the economy in different times. The pound is fked and we don't have any real industry, but we're doing better than we would be if we were in the Eurozone. We'd be as fked as Ireland.

I love Europe, I think it's great. It has the feel of freedom the way the UK probably did before my time. You can blast around and not see a speed camera, you can have a fag in a pub, you can ride a motorbike without a crash helmet and generally have a lovely life.

Europeans don't seem to listen to the totalitarian stuff than comes out of Brussels. I really respect them for it and I wish our government were the same.

Sadly, our government interpret the Euro bullst to the letter and the result is loads of red tape and decreased productivity. Think farming and fishing.

Any strengthening of the EU will cause them to become more totalitarian in order to wield control and will right upon us. Our governments will apply this with crippling affect on the country.

I'm pissed off with this totalitarian government and I'm fed up with being ignored and manipulated by these grinning idiots.

I've come to a conclusion that it's a better idea to have less people wielding control, that way people are responsible to succeed and when they do, they are not punished. It's called libertarianism.

I would sign up for a United States of Europe right now if it meant that Westminster would be abolished and the purpose of Brussels was to regulate and provide the bare minimum services at a county level. I'd love to step outside the door and get in my car and have that Euro feeling. It's great.

Half the subliminal sales point of the EUSSR is that we will be improved by being a part of the greatness over there. Chuck in a staffroom's full of buzzwords and you have something you'd be idiotic not to go along with.

I vote for a libertarian, minimal government and the abolishion of as much red tape as possible. If we call it the USE, I don't care.

They are not libertarian
They are not democratic
They cannot account for the cashflows
They are corrupt
They think they know best
They will regulate and punish you where your life disagrees with their model
This will get worse
You will get taxed more and have less choice what to do with your money.
It is in their interest to gain more power/control to apply their economically thin and eutopian policy.
It will cripple business in all sectors and all levels.
This is typical of UK Government, regardless of who they are. It is also a feature of the EU Government.

Being in favour of anything that results in more government is stupid, unless you stand to benefit by the process. Eg, you are chums with Mandy.

It is popular to visualise Euro-Skeptics as people like Victor Meldrew, remember the end of the war, hate foreigners, are backwards, right wing and outdated. It's like a typewriter compared to an apple mac. I think it's people with a proper education who are able to see beyond the bullst.

We are drifting into this and I can see the middleman (Westminster) is not going to get abolished. If we saw the net result of control like Greece, Spain, etc, I'd do it now. This almost certainly won't happen.

The key danger is Euro policy being administered by UK Government

In order to have a better chance, one of the above bold words needs to be removed in practice.

Edit:- I'm not a nationalist and neither are a lot of euroskeptics. Make it libertarian and everyone will sign up. I'd be willing to bin our government in a second. I'd even bin CallMeDave-ervatives if they were in charge. It is this "nationalists are all s like the BNP" which stigmatises and halts the cause. I would bet that most Euroskeptics don't give a st what the official flag is, what the official name is. They will remain British/Scottish/Welsh in their hearts......man.

Edited by Shoot Blair on Thursday 29th October 17:35