Discussion
Tax rises would be the worse thing recession wise, folk need money to spend to stimulate the economy, so sack 1 million public sector wasters and give us the taxpayer the 12 billion back in tax cuts, problem solved.
It's the only way out of this Labour created mess.
Good housekeeping and all that, if you were maxed out on your credit card would spending more get you out of debt? No of course not, you’d need to stop wasting money, and Public Sector is where billions are being wasted, so should be the first to go.
It's the only way out of this Labour created mess.
Good housekeeping and all that, if you were maxed out on your credit card would spending more get you out of debt? No of course not, you’d need to stop wasting money, and Public Sector is where billions are being wasted, so should be the first to go.
RichardD said:
Guybrush said:
...Yes, some public sector employees may say they're busy, but are they busy doing anything useful? The country was in a far better financial state in 1997 when there were almost a million less of them, so we got by somehow.
Co-incidentally when there were a million less PS employees in 1997, were there a million more in manufacturing?
Edited by Tangent Police on Wednesday 3rd February 11:56
Far more economically sensible than voluntary redundancies would be to close whole departments and then go for mandatory redundancy to thin the dead wood.
Given that Gordon has hit bank workers bonuses with a special tax, and has allowed retrospective tax changes to rule BN99, then it should be possible to effectively remove the public sector pensions by taxing specifically those payments at a much higher rate (say 75%).
The above would save 100s of billions a year, we already have the legal framework to do it in, and public sector workers can't move abroad so would have to stay and accept it.
That should allow us to pay our way out of the deficit without a single tax rise. Tax alowances would then rise with inflation allowing everyone to enjoy an effective tax cut.
Given that Gordon has hit bank workers bonuses with a special tax, and has allowed retrospective tax changes to rule BN99, then it should be possible to effectively remove the public sector pensions by taxing specifically those payments at a much higher rate (say 75%).
The above would save 100s of billions a year, we already have the legal framework to do it in, and public sector workers can't move abroad so would have to stay and accept it.
That should allow us to pay our way out of the deficit without a single tax rise. Tax alowances would then rise with inflation allowing everyone to enjoy an effective tax cut.
Deva Link said:
7thCircleAcolyte said:
The above would save 100s of billions a year,
The thing that worries me about such stupid statements is that some people might believe them.There's over £1.2 trillion of public sector pension liabilities already racked up with a £800 million deficit that's unfunded. Any idea at all how that's going to be paid for? I thought not.
Here's a clue - it will be via public sector job cuts and massive public sector pension cuts, as its not possible to raise enough tax or borrowing to pay for it anymore. This will begin at the budget following the election. The only thing about it open to discussion is what form those job & pension cuts will take.
There's a massive structural deficit that has to be addressed. This can only be done by increasing state income (tax rises) or cutting state spending (public sector jobs, wages, and pensions). The deficit is so large its roughly equivalent to 1 in 5 state jobs and there's simply no way to raise that kind of money via tax rises.
The gravvy train has derailed. The private sector have had our brownturn, and now it is the turn of the state sector. I know you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.
Bri957 said:
Do you have any direct experience of working in the public sector?
I do, yes. That's why I know with a full restructuring (post abolition of the unions) the same service could be provided to the public for 40% of the cost.The scale of waste and lead swinging is simply unimaginable to anyone that hasn't worked there.
7thCircleAcolyte said:
Here's a clue - it will be via public sector job cuts and massive public sector pension cuts, as its not possible to raise enough tax or borrowing to pay for it anymore.
Sadly true.What we will also see more of is key mergers in the public sector. This has already happened with two of our Local Authority clients, where two councils became one. They were able to cut jobs and make huge savings. As of September last year, they were operating first class services at a budget level 15% less than the lowest expectation of budget availability forecast over the next three years.
Bri957 said:
Do you have any direct experience of working in the public sector?
No, I work for a living.But unfortunately I have plenty of experience of dealing with them and to a man/woman/thing they are all useless, if I had a choice I'd take my custom elsewhere, which of course I don't
Vive la problem
nonegreen said:
Bri957 said:
Do you have any direct experience of working in the public sector?
Yes lots. 7 yrs public sector, 13 years private sector, 4 years charity and 6 years self employed. Next question. Pupp said:
Futuo said:
Bri957 said:
Do you have any direct experience of working in the public sector?
No, I work for a living.
We do NH eye tests and I just know they will be stingy re paying us anything like what they should be paying so if they are stingy with the nation’s health then why not shed a few pointless pen pushers?
Two stories I will post that they are factual and make my p1ss boil..
Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and s
tf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.
He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Another person a friend this time, is put in charge of a dept in southend with 42 staff.. almost all have excessive sickness records (not excessive for CS, just real world) he wanted to get rid of all of them. So he tried an experiement.... 39 of the 42 were asked to do no work for a week.. and 3 people to carry out the departments work. they coped fine..
Friend was moved to new role the next month.
Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and s
tf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Another person a friend this time, is put in charge of a dept in southend with 42 staff.. almost all have excessive sickness records (not excessive for CS, just real world) he wanted to get rid of all of them. So he tried an experiement.... 39 of the 42 were asked to do no work for a week.. and 3 people to carry out the departments work. they coped fine..
Friend was moved to new role the next month.
rich1231 said:
Two stories I will post that they are factual and make my p1ss boil..
Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and stf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.
He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Hmm....to get £35-£40K in the CS now, never mind 10 years ago, you'd have to be a pretty high up grade. The manager of a Job Centre, for example, wouldn't be earning anything like that. So why would they grade the jobs you describe at such as a level as to pay those salaries?Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and s
tf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Maybe there's a lot of bills
t there - I could say that at the moment I'm being paid £100K to post on PistonHeads.Whilst we're in a slagemoff mode.
In both 2006 and 2009, I did 3 terms of supply teaching.
In 2006, I worked nearly every day. Probably 4 out of 5 days for the whole year. 2009 winter term, I did 4 days of work.
I spoke to a few of my "floater" friends and there was a similar trend of employment. It wasn't down to how the staff were engaged or any personal choice by the paymasters, it was purely down to staff getting a grip. It was publically announced that there would be staff cuts and that was that.
I've been in 25 schools excluding my contracted work and I'd say that probably gives me a more valid position to generalise than most. The excuses I've heard about sickness are mind boggling, the bottom line is that once you have your feet under the table, you can take the piss bigtime and unless you beat up/fk a kid, you are nigh on impossible to sack.
I hear about how my fellow staff are all so dedicated that they are up until midnight marking, planning lessons and they drag themselves in, regardless of health to ensure the kids have the best continuity and quality of learning.
We've all heard the bleating in the pubs/events and we all think "Gosh, I'm glad I'm not a teacher, they are overworked, underpaid and it's this cancerous, self-destructive selfless goodness for the community".
The people that are true grafters are very much a rarity. In a good school, you might get about 1/3 but with most, it's probably about 1/10th. As long as they can tick their boxes on performance management days, that's all the work they need do.
Granted, there are some really dedicated selfless people, but the feedback I've got from 25 schools, deparetments, staff, students and taking it with a big pinch of salt is that it's too wasteful and the staff are too slack.
I've worked in a factory for 12 hour nightshifts, I've done graft as well as academic work, etc, etc and 5 out of 6 hours of teaching, plus a bit of marking isn't rocket science. The ratio of supply/demand of jobs is ridiculous (common to the CC and other PS areas? ) and this should be a direct reason to either raise standards and clear out the dead wood or cut costs.
There is room for a lot of sock-pulling-up as proven by the real threat of redundancy. Funnily enough, it's a barometer of the recession that supply work has picked up now (I'm running my own business now) showing that the slackness is creeping back in.
Or perhaps they are actually working themselves sick
In both 2006 and 2009, I did 3 terms of supply teaching.
In 2006, I worked nearly every day. Probably 4 out of 5 days for the whole year. 2009 winter term, I did 4 days of work.
I spoke to a few of my "floater" friends and there was a similar trend of employment. It wasn't down to how the staff were engaged or any personal choice by the paymasters, it was purely down to staff getting a grip. It was publically announced that there would be staff cuts and that was that.
I've been in 25 schools excluding my contracted work and I'd say that probably gives me a more valid position to generalise than most. The excuses I've heard about sickness are mind boggling, the bottom line is that once you have your feet under the table, you can take the piss bigtime and unless you beat up/f
k a kid, you are nigh on impossible to sack. I hear about how my fellow staff are all so dedicated that they are up until midnight marking, planning lessons and they drag themselves in, regardless of health to ensure the kids have the best continuity and quality of learning.
We've all heard the bleating in the pubs/events and we all think "Gosh, I'm glad I'm not a teacher, they are overworked, underpaid and it's this cancerous, self-destructive selfless goodness for the community".
The people that are true grafters are very much a rarity. In a good school, you might get about 1/3 but with most, it's probably about 1/10th. As long as they can tick their boxes on performance management days, that's all the work they need do.
Granted, there are some really dedicated selfless people, but the feedback I've got from 25 schools, deparetments, staff, students and taking it with a big pinch of salt is that it's too wasteful and the staff are too slack.
I've worked in a factory for 12 hour nightshifts, I've done graft as well as academic work, etc, etc and 5 out of 6 hours of teaching, plus a bit of marking isn't rocket science. The ratio of supply/demand of jobs is ridiculous (common to the CC and other PS areas? ) and this should be a direct reason to either raise standards and clear out the dead wood or cut costs.
There is room for a lot of sock-pulling-up as proven by the real threat of redundancy. Funnily enough, it's a barometer of the recession that supply work has picked up now (I'm running my own business now) showing that the slackness is creeping back in.
Or perhaps they are actually working themselves sick
Deva Link said:
rich1231 said:
Two stories I will post that they are factual and make my p1ss boil..
Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and stf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.
He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Hmm....to get £35-£40K in the CS now, never mind 10 years ago, you'd have to be a pretty high up grade. The manager of a Job Centre, for example, wouldn't be earning anything like that. So why would they grade the jobs you describe at such as a level as to pay those salaries?Case 1..
Bloke joins CS and spends 5 years filling VAT printers with paper, not the most demanding job.. gets paid 35k that was 10 years ago.. and s
tf allowances... he lives 100 yards from work yet is able to get taxis etc after dark.. Had average of 70 sick days whilst there.He gets moved to desk job in London on about 40k... his role... to prepare visitor packs for his department..... thats it really... he brags in once year he put 40 odd packs together...
Maybe there's a lot of bills
t there - I could say that at the moment I'm being paid £100K to post on PistonHeads.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff