Lib Dems... why are they so overlooked?
Discussion
Incredible Sulk said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
Fair enough. However, thankfully your opinion has no impact on their standing as a political party.
I think it's quite hypocritical to consider the Lib Dems as a viable alternative to Labour and the Tories, and completely write off UKIP. In a lot of people's eyes UKIP have considerably more credibility than the Lib Dems.
That's right, and that's why they're taking part in all the televised debates leading up to the election... oh. I think it's quite hypocritical to consider the Lib Dems as a viable alternative to Labour and the Tories, and completely write off UKIP. In a lot of people's eyes UKIP have considerably more credibility than the Lib Dems.
maix27 said:
Watching some of the clips from last night's future Chancellor debate got me thinking.
Everything I've heard from the Lib Dems seems to make sense. They cut through the bull crap spouted by the other two parties, they seem more in touch with what actually needs to be done to rectify the problems Labour has landed us in, they shy away from the usual sniping of the other two (i.e. bad mouthing other parties) and they generally seem like real people who are concerended about the country's well being rather than their own political craving for power.
Why are they overlooked so readily?
I personally hear way too often, 'i like their policies but they'll never get in, so it's a wasted vote'.
If everyone who thought like this voted for them I think they'd get somewhere.
What do you guys think?
...what, you mean like the Liberal administrations that run Islington and Richmond Council and use their powers to pursue zealous anti-car ownership policies to the max. They are worse than Labour, and even more expensive.Everything I've heard from the Lib Dems seems to make sense. They cut through the bull crap spouted by the other two parties, they seem more in touch with what actually needs to be done to rectify the problems Labour has landed us in, they shy away from the usual sniping of the other two (i.e. bad mouthing other parties) and they generally seem like real people who are concerended about the country's well being rather than their own political craving for power.
Why are they overlooked so readily?
I personally hear way too often, 'i like their policies but they'll never get in, so it's a wasted vote'.
If everyone who thought like this voted for them I think they'd get somewhere.
What do you guys think?
Time to throw in my four-pennorth, starting with a little bit of history.
The Liberal party were the main opposition to the conservatives until the early 1920s, when Lloyd George managed to split the party - mainly over pensions and Irish independence. The split was a big one - the last sitting Liberal MP in Bristol South lost both his seat and his deposit.
They lumbered along as a tiny party for many years, most of the time taking a centre-right political stance. This was where they stood when I was a member 1974-1976.
The trouble is that all parties move in their political persuasion over the years in an atemopt to gain votes. The Tories went from centre right under Edward Heath to exceptionally right wing under Thatcher, and have now moved back to the centre. Labour went from centre left under Wilson and Callaghan to loony left under Michael Foot, and were dragged back to the centre ground by Neil Kinnock, John Smith and Tony Blair.
These days, there being no vacant centre ground left to stand on, the Lib Dems are now probably to the left of labour in their political views. Personally, I suppose you could call me a "left wing Tory" and, whilst the Lib Dems might have repesented my views when I was a member in the 70s, they certainly do not do so now. Except on Europe, but I know I'm in a minority around here in supporting the EU, so lets not bother going there now!
In the event of a hung parliament, the Lib Dems are likely to become the third largest party, and are the most likely to end up in coalition with somebody. My gut feeling is that they would rather cuddle up to Labour than the conservatives, and so ultimately we run the risk of another bout of Labour administration backed up by the Lib Dems. Stranger things have happened, of course, and this is not set in stone, but it is just my gut feeling.
Somebody (I think it was the OP) has already described UKIP supporters as idiots, and I can see why he might take that view but I couldn't possibly comment What I can comment on, however, is that if you vote UKIP or BNP in a constituency where the Lib Dems come a close second to the Tories, you will almost certainly end up with exactly the opposite of what you want, in getting a Lib Dem MP rather than a Tory, who presumably would be your second choice.
The Liberal party were the main opposition to the conservatives until the early 1920s, when Lloyd George managed to split the party - mainly over pensions and Irish independence. The split was a big one - the last sitting Liberal MP in Bristol South lost both his seat and his deposit.
They lumbered along as a tiny party for many years, most of the time taking a centre-right political stance. This was where they stood when I was a member 1974-1976.
The trouble is that all parties move in their political persuasion over the years in an atemopt to gain votes. The Tories went from centre right under Edward Heath to exceptionally right wing under Thatcher, and have now moved back to the centre. Labour went from centre left under Wilson and Callaghan to loony left under Michael Foot, and were dragged back to the centre ground by Neil Kinnock, John Smith and Tony Blair.
These days, there being no vacant centre ground left to stand on, the Lib Dems are now probably to the left of labour in their political views. Personally, I suppose you could call me a "left wing Tory" and, whilst the Lib Dems might have repesented my views when I was a member in the 70s, they certainly do not do so now. Except on Europe, but I know I'm in a minority around here in supporting the EU, so lets not bother going there now!
In the event of a hung parliament, the Lib Dems are likely to become the third largest party, and are the most likely to end up in coalition with somebody. My gut feeling is that they would rather cuddle up to Labour than the conservatives, and so ultimately we run the risk of another bout of Labour administration backed up by the Lib Dems. Stranger things have happened, of course, and this is not set in stone, but it is just my gut feeling.
Somebody (I think it was the OP) has already described UKIP supporters as idiots, and I can see why he might take that view but I couldn't possibly comment
What I can comment on, however, is that if you vote UKIP or BNP in a constituency where the Lib Dems come a close second to the Tories, you will almost certainly end up with exactly the opposite of what you want, in getting a Lib Dem MP rather than a Tory, who presumably would be your second choice.maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
but we're in Europe and there's nothing we can do about it,
If we told them we didn't want to be in their little club any more, what are they going to do, invade?Edited by maix27 on Tuesday 30th March 12:01
You're the one advocating the Lib Dems
ETA. And you stated there's nothing we can do about membership to the EU, however UKIP seem to think otherwise. I must have missed the part where they don't actually qualify as a real party.
Edited by cocopop on Tuesday 30th March 13:43
IMO people have been brainwashed into thinking the LidDems are a wasted vote. If it's repeated often enough, people start believing it. A bit like MMGW really.
New Labour borrowed a lot of Tory policies to get into power. Now what depresses me is that there seems to be little difference between the policies of the two main parties.
LibDems might offer a real alternative, but unfortunately it's to the left. I suspect many PH-er's who are unhappy with Lab/Con want something to the right. Bring back Maggie? But to the right, all we have is UKIP (too many holes in their boat, no experience) or the fascists.
But those of you dismissing the Liberals as a waste of time might want to consider to what extent the UK voting system lets us down. LibDem typically get more than 20% of all votes, and the number of seats they've won has trebled over the last 20 years. If we had proportional representation, or if we get the hung parliament everyone's predicting, they might become slightly more significant than most PH-er's expect.
PS: Any chance that Maggie can come back for a few years?
New Labour borrowed a lot of Tory policies to get into power. Now what depresses me is that there seems to be little difference between the policies of the two main parties.
LibDems might offer a real alternative, but unfortunately it's to the left. I suspect many PH-er's who are unhappy with Lab/Con want something to the right. Bring back Maggie? But to the right, all we have is UKIP (too many holes in their boat, no experience) or the fascists.
But those of you dismissing the Liberals as a waste of time might want to consider to what extent the UK voting system lets us down. LibDem typically get more than 20% of all votes, and the number of seats they've won has trebled over the last 20 years. If we had proportional representation, or if we get the hung parliament everyone's predicting, they might become slightly more significant than most PH-er's expect.
PS: Any chance that Maggie can come back for a few years?
-Pete- said:
IMO people have been brainwashed into thinking the LidDems are a wasted vote. If it's repeated often enough, people start believing it. A bit like MMGW really.
New Labour borrowed a lot of Tory policies to get into power. Now what depresses me is that there seems to be little difference between the policies of the two main parties.
LibDems might offer a real alternative, but unfortunately it's to the left. I suspect many PH-er's who are unhappy with Lab/Con want something to the right. Bring back Maggie? But to the right, all we have is UKIP (too many holes in their boat, no experience) or the fascists.
But those of you dismissing the Liberals as a waste of time might want to consider to what extent the UK voting system lets us down. LibDem typically get more than 20% of all votes, and the number of seats they've won has trebled over the last 20 years. If we had proportional representation, or if we get the hung parliament everyone's predicting, they might become slightly more significant than most PH-er's expect.
PS: Any chance that Maggie can come back for a few years?
The lib-dems are a wasted vote as both Tory and Labour (proper parties) have camped on their ground. New Labour borrowed a lot of Tory policies to get into power. Now what depresses me is that there seems to be little difference between the policies of the two main parties.
LibDems might offer a real alternative, but unfortunately it's to the left. I suspect many PH-er's who are unhappy with Lab/Con want something to the right. Bring back Maggie? But to the right, all we have is UKIP (too many holes in their boat, no experience) or the fascists.
But those of you dismissing the Liberals as a waste of time might want to consider to what extent the UK voting system lets us down. LibDem typically get more than 20% of all votes, and the number of seats they've won has trebled over the last 20 years. If we had proportional representation, or if we get the hung parliament everyone's predicting, they might become slightly more significant than most PH-er's expect.
PS: Any chance that Maggie can come back for a few years?
We don't need a different government, we need less government.
I've seen the Liberals at a local level. They are the party of the Soccer Mum - not particularly good at spending money (or at least in a way which gives value for money) and they have similar 'envy' characteristics to Labour i.e. penalise the rich, closing Grammar Schools (so that it's basically getting into one of the Kingston Grammar schools is a lottery for those who can afford to live near one). As for Vince Cable, he has some good points (some of which he has nicked from Osborne) and the anti-banker stuff which all sounds great to the until you realise that killing one of your main export services isn't a particularly good strategy.
Edited by fido on Thursday 1st April 09:01
essexplumber said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
but we're in Europe and there's nothing we can do about it,
If we told them we didn't want to be in their little club any more, what are they going to do, invade?Edited by maix27 on Tuesday 30th March 12:01
You're the one advocating the Lib Dems
ETA. And you stated there's nothing we can do about membership to the EU, however UKIP seem to think otherwise. I must have missed the part where they don't actually qualify as a real party.
Edited by cocopop on Tuesday 30th March 13:43
I was looking for other people's opinions, care to share yours rather than throwing around ignorant comments?
maix27 said:
essexplumber said:
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
Maix27. I'm getting the feeling that you lean very much into the left and that you may be a bit of a troll.I was looking for other people's opinions, care to share yours rather than throwing around ignorant comments?
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
maix27 said:
essexplumber said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
cocopop said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
Einion Yrth said:
maix27 said:
but we're in Europe and there's nothing we can do about it,
If we told them we didn't want to be in their little club any more, what are they going to do, invade?Edited by maix27 on Tuesday 30th March 12:01
You're the one advocating the Lib Dems
ETA. And you stated there's nothing we can do about membership to the EU, however UKIP seem to think otherwise. I must have missed the part where they don't actually qualify as a real party.
Edited by cocopop on Tuesday 30th March 13:43
I was looking for other people's opinions, care to share yours rather than throwing around ignorant comments?
Are you an individualist liberal or a collectivist liberal?
The term has become so b
dised, I might as well say "Are you a libertarian or a Socialist?"Don't say "a bit of both" as they are mutually insoluble.
Phil1 said:
maix27 said:
essexplumber said:
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
Maix27. I'm getting the feeling that you lean very much into the left and that you may be a bit of a troll.I was looking for other people's opinions, care to share yours rather than throwing around ignorant comments?
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
It's not like I haven't put any thought in to it... now that would be trolling.
I sit left of centre, a bit too far left for any of the UK political parties to represent my views.
Anyone who says Labour are left wing is deluded.
I have no problem disagreeing my with my views, I love a good debate and I like hearing the views of others.
Calling me a troll though... give me a break.
maix27 said:
Phil1 said:
maix27 said:
essexplumber said:
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
Maix27. I'm getting the feeling that you lean very much into the left and that you may be a bit of a troll.I was looking for other people's opinions, care to share yours rather than throwing around ignorant comments?
maix27 said:
UKIP are a bunch of idiots, voted for by idiots or bigots... a slight step away from the BNP if you ask me.
It's not like I haven't put any thought in to it... now that would be trolling.
I sit left of centre, a bit too far left for any of the UK political parties to represent my views.
Anyone who says Labour are left wing is deluded.
I have no problem disagreeing my with my views, I love a good debate and I like hearing the views of others.
Calling me a troll though... give me a break.
The Black Flash said:
maix27 said:
So, have views changed with the recent resurgence? People seem to be taking them seriously now.
I know a few of their policies stink but I still see them as the party most focused on 'the people'.
Thoughts?
My thoughts? Hahahahahaha, Sucker.I know a few of their policies stink but I still see them as the party most focused on 'the people'.
Thoughts?
Well, you did ask.
All the parties are essentially socialists. It varies from third way stuff to good old fashioned collectivism.
Libdems are neither liberal or democratic, however, they offer a kind of "funky coffee" for those bored and sick of drinking nescafe or safeway own brand. If you catch my drift.....
Communitarianism is a great idea, but sadly, in order to facilitate this diverse, inclusive community where everyone is equal, they need to first deny some of the real differences between these people, and then totally ignore human behaviour. It's beautiful in theory, but sadly the theory does not approximate anything out in "the wild".
maix27 said:
So, have views changed with the recent resurgence? People seem to be taking them seriously now.
I know a few of their policies stink but I still see them as the party most focused on 'the people'.
Thoughts?
If you want to see a society where you are punished for doing well and rewarded for being lazy, then vote LibDem by all means.I know a few of their policies stink but I still see them as the party most focused on 'the people'.
Thoughts?
Their core principle for the election is "fairness". What do you think this means?
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