Could a Lib Dem Govt. be good for the country?

[Stevenj214]

tamore said:

Stevenj214 said:

DSM2 said:

Fittster said:

Wadeski said:

Clegg probably WOULD be the Tory party leader if the Tories weren't so bonkers Eurosceptic.

Yes, because Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy have done so well from the European project.

Exactly!!

The same Ireland which has been transformed from one of the poorest countries in the EU to one of the richest?

eh? ireland is on the verge of bankrupcy.

In terms of GDP per capita.

As shown with Greece, the EU won't let one of their countries go bankrupt.

So Ireland has benefitted hugely from being an EU member state when times were good and has a safety net as an EU member state now that times are bad.

[s2art]

Stevenj214 said:

tamore said:

Stevenj214 said:

DSM2 said:

Fittster said:

Wadeski said:

Clegg probably WOULD be the Tory party leader if the Tories weren't so bonkers Eurosceptic.

Yes, because Greece, Portugal, Ireland, Spain and Italy have done so well from the European project.

Exactly!!

The same Ireland which has been transformed from one of the poorest countries in the EU to one of the richest?

eh? ireland is on the verge of bankrupcy.

In terms of GDP per capita.

As shown with Greece, the EU won't let one of their countries go bankrupt.

So Ireland has benefitted hugely from being an EU member state when times were good and has a safety net as an EU member state now that times are bad.

Its yet to be proven if the EU will let Greece go bankrupt. To all intents and purposes Greece is bankrupt, and it looks like the IMF is their only hope.
No point in quoting Irelands GDP per capita from a year or two ago. What is it now? There is no safety net provided by the EU, on the contrary its written into the Eurozone agreement that its forbidden to bale out Eurozone members. That is why there is so much hassle in getting Greece a bail-out. Its going to the German courts now.

[grumbledoak]

IMF rescues come with strings attached. A quick check of the history books might help you here.

Or, you could work out which African country never took such loans...

[s2art]

grumbledoak said:

IMF rescues come with strings attached. A quick check of the history books might help you here.

Or, you could work out which African country never took such loans...

Any bail-out will come with strings attached. Check out what happened to the UK the last time Labour ruined our economy, the IMF dictated public spending un the UK for years.

[Stevenj214]

s2art said:

No point in quoting Irelands GDP per capita from a year or two ago. What is it now?

Ireland

1980 - $6.5k
2007 - $43k (max)
2009 - $39k

UK

1980 - $8.5k
2008 - $36k (max)
2009 - $35k

Edited by Stevenj214 on Sunday 18th April 18:41

[s2art]

Stevenj214 said:

s2art said:

No point in quoting Irelands GDP per capita from a year or two ago. What is it now?

Ireland

1980 - £6.5k
2007 - £43k (max)
2009 - £39k

UK

1980 - £8.5k
2008 - £36k (max)
2009 - £35k

Not sure I believe the 2009 figure, maybe that was before the big cuts came in, but 2010? Presumably the UK figure for 2007 would be higher than 2008? Also it would be interesting to see Ireland figures in Euros.

[Stevenj214]

s2art said:

Not sure I believe the 2009 figure, maybe that was before the big cuts came in, but 2010? Presumably the UK figure for 2007 would be higher than 2008? Also it would be interesting to see Ireland figures in Euros.

I edited my post as they're both actually in USD.

Anyway, my point is that Ireland have done very very well out of EU membership. Yes, they may have felt invincible and not planned properly for not so good times but that is beside the point.

I'm not saying that more EU integration would be better or worse for the UK, but I think arguments such as "more EU? Just look at... " is entirely uncondusive to reasonable debate.

It seems to me that a lot of the resistance to more EU integration comes from the 'Tally-ho, Head of the Empire, We Built The Commonwealth, We Are a Major World Power' mindset.

[grumbledoak]

s2art said:

Any bail-out will come with strings attached. Check out what happened to the UK the last time Labour ruined our economy, the IMF dictated public spending un the UK for years.

Sorry, my history books comment was aimed more at Steven.

The IMF's bail outs normally come with trade agreement strings. It didn't hurt the UK particularly badly as we were already pretty free trading. Across South America and Africa these agreements have allowed largely US exports to decimate local industry (which is largely what they were intended to do).



Edit- "noremally"? Twit.

Edited by grumbledoak on Sunday 18th April 18:54

[s2art]

Stevenj214 said:

s2art said:

Not sure I believe the 2009 figure, maybe that was before the big cuts came in, but 2010? Presumably the UK figure for 2007 would be higher than 2008? Also it would be interesting to see Ireland figures in Euros.

I edited my post as they're both actually in USD.

Anyway, my point is that Ireland have done very very well out of EU membership. Yes, they may have felt invincible and not planned properly for not so good times but that is beside the point.

I'm not saying that more EU integration would be better or worse for the UK, but I think arguments such as "more EU? Just look at... " is entirely uncondusive to reasonable debate.

It seems to me that a lot of the resistance to more EU integration comes from the 'Tally-ho, Head of the Empire, We Built The Commonwealth, We Are a Major World Power' mindset.

Not really. We need to see how it pans out for the PIIGS yet. The real test is how it copes with bad times, all we have seen to date is the effect of having large quantities of money being given in grants to the poorer countries. That money is now in short supply.
There are really two debates here, EU membership and Eurozone membership.

A lot of the 'resistance' to EU membership for the UK has nothing to do with your statement. Its about the consequences to our pockets and our culture. Nothing wrong with a free trade zone, its the political aspects most object to.

[AJS-]

Stevenj214 said:

It seems to me that a lot of the resistance to more EU integration comes from the 'Tally-ho, Head of the Empire, We Built The Commonwealth, We Are a Major World Power' mindset.

I don't really see where this idea comes from. Who exactly has this attitude? Most people I've heard criticise the EU (from the UK and elsewhere) seem to make fairly valid points about the complete lack of any democratic control, the massive amounts of money and the arrogant abuse of both of these by the EU bodies themselves.

If anything I would say the it's those who are pro EU that are hankering after being a world power, with their notion that chucking our lot in with France, Germany et al will enable us to provide a counterbalance to America, or "compete" with China and India (for what?)

[deeps]

It's scary how easilly people are sucked in. After the TV debate a mate in the pub said he was now thinking of voting LibDem. He runs his own business with good profits, yet even he was sucked in! I did explain his corporation tax would likely double! He's a keen driver too, driving a Merc SL 55 AMG, that'll be hammered with tax and road pricing, amazing how people can fall for the 'front' of bullst and not bother looking at the hidden policies.

[hidetheelephants]

s2art said:

grumbledoak said:

IMF rescues come with strings attached. A quick check of the history books might help you here.

Or, you could work out which African country never took such loans...

Any bail-out will come with strings attached. Check out what happened to the UK the last time Labour ruined our economy, the IMF dictated public spending un the UK for years.

Point of order; we never got an IMF loan. The severe budget cuts enacted by Denis Healey in order to meet the demands of the IMF averted the crisis sufficiently on their own, so no loan was required.

[Yeast Lord]

I just realised they nearly got me. I thought they were libertarian and democratic but their neither, their frigging healthy and safety useless liberal eu wkers. The libdumbs will make a trough so big, people from other galaxies will come to feed from it.

[pilchardthecat]

hidetheelephants said:

s2art said:

grumbledoak said:

IMF rescues come with strings attached. A quick check of the history books might help you here.

Or, you could work out which African country never took such loans...

Any bail-out will come with strings attached. Check out what happened to the UK the last time Labour ruined our economy, the IMF dictated public spending un the UK for years.

Point of order; we never got an IMF loan. The severe budget cuts enacted by Denis Healey in order to meet the demands of the IMF averted the crisis sufficiently on their own, so no loan was required.

True. He needed the threat of the IMF to do the right thing, because without it, the unions wouldn't have let him. This perfectly highlights why socialism is bad for the country.

Edited by pilchardthecat on Monday 19th April 09:04

[isee]

Saw an snippet of the interview with some libdem person on the politics show this weeknd.
They are talking about taxing frequent flyers because of the emissions. I assume that is in addition to airport tax and fuel tax. What a pathetic window-licking logic!

This was plenty enough for me to firmly cross tehm out of the shortlist.

[otolith]

AJS- said:

If anything I would say the it's those who are pro EU that are hankering after being a world power, with their notion that chucking our lot in with France, Germany et al will enable us to provide a counterbalance to America, or "compete" with China and India (for what?)

"Superpower envy"

[10 Pence Short]

The Lib Dems haven't got a clue. If people disliked Blair's style over substance approach I can't for the life of me understand what they think Nick Clegg is all about?

The guy successfully worked out that appearing as a human with empathy on a telly debate would endear him to idiotic, apolitical morons who only watched it because it was on after Coronation Street and they couldn't be arsed to reach for the remote.

The thought that the camp baffoon could have some hand in ruining our country post-May is even more frightening than the prospect of that one-eyed, jowlly communist and his slug browed closet assistant keeping hold of power.

[joe_90]

10 Pence Short said:

The Lib Dems haven't got a clue. If people disliked Blair's style over substance approach I can't for the life of me understand what they think Nick Clegg is all about?

The guy successfully worked out that appearing as a human with empathy on a telly debate would endear him to idiotic, apolitical morons who only watched it because it was on after Coronation Street and they couldn't be arsed to reach for the remote.

The thought that the camp baffoon could have some hand in ruining our country post-May is even more frightening than the prospect of that one-eyed, jowlly communist and his slug browed closet assistant keeping hold of power.

I cannot understand which one has any clue really..

[10 Pence Short]

Stevenj214 said:

It seems to me that a lot of the resistance to more EU integration comes from the 'Tally-ho, Head of the Empire, We Built The Commonwealth, We Are a Major World Power' mindset.

No, it comes from the realisation that the EU is a leech that drains our resources in it's ultimately socialist aim to redistribute wealth from those generating it to the shiney new roads, hospitals and corruptions in the states that realise they can be net beneficiaries at our expense without actually putting anything of note in.

Then, to rub salt into the wounds, we can't realistically control who's in power in Europe, yet they get to make laws that effect all of our day to day lives when they can't even create a legally sound set of accounts every year.

Nigel Farage's EU expenses were what? £2-3m? And we're worrying about some duck pond furnishings and some guys emplying their wives and mistresses over here?

The whole f'cking EU project is a corrupt gravy train for politicians (well, crooks masquerading as politicians (see Mandelson)) to disappear out of public view whilst siphoning away as much tax generated cash into their own pockets as possible. The more the UK integrates with the EU the more we become a fantastic cash cow at the mercy of nations who hold very little historical affection for us.

[Tangent Police]

10 Pence Short said:

Stevenj214 said:

It seems to me that a lot of the resistance to more EU integration comes from the 'Tally-ho, Head of the Empire, We Built The Commonwealth, We Are a Major World Power' mindset.

No, it comes from the realisation that the EU is a leech that drains our resources in it's ultimately socialist aim to redistribute wealth from those generating it to the shiney new roads, hospitals and corruptions in the states that realise they can be net beneficiaries at our expense without actually putting anything of note in.

Then, to rub salt into the wounds, we can't realistically control who's in power in Europe, yet they get to make laws that effect all of our day to day lives when they can't even create a legally sound set of accounts every year.

Nigel Farage's EU expenses were what? £2-3m? And we're worrying about some duck pond furnishings and some guys emplying their wives and mistresses over here?

The whole f'cking EU project is a corrupt gravy train for politicians (well, crooks masquerading as politicians (see Mandelson)) to disappear out of public view whilst siphoning away as much tax generated cash into their own pockets as possible. The more the UK integrates with the EU the more we become a fantastic cash cow at the mercy of nations who hold very little historical affection for us.

TPS, I had you down as a socialist prick. But I agree with this sentiment totally. It's one of the most agreeable things I have read on PH.