Dear England

[Blue Meanie]

Surely if the red rose isn;t the true symbol, then neither is the white one. It would be whatever symbol Athelstan used?

As far as I am aware, that would be this...

Edited by Blue Meanie on Tuesday 20th April 15:40

[Ayahuasca]

Blue Meanie said:

Surely if the red rose isn;t the true symbol, then neither is the white one. It would be whatever symbol Athelstan used?

As far as I am aware, that would be this...

Edited by Blue Meanie on Tuesday 20th April 15:40

Looks a bit Welsh to me.


These are the arms you are looking for:

[JRM]

I have always adored my English heritage, but the older I get the less nationalistic I become and the more I travel the more I don't feel like associating my self with one country - it seems alsmot a silly idea to cling to a country when we all enjoy the wonderful places all over the world.

Partly I think this is caused by globalisation and people feel less tied to a nation, but also because I live in London which is such an amazingly open place that the melting pot erodes the concentration of the English populace.

I yearn for England of yesterdayear, looking at the architecture in London and the Victorian achievements, I adore the history we have, but it's just that, history. It doesn't influence my daily life, the immediate and annoying things do, the congestion, the taxation, the politics.

I'd love to have been in Englad 100 years ago and living through a time of growth and excitment, but that isn't England today. Other countries are going through that and I can't help feeling that I would rather be part of something growing, than something that is dying.

Makes me feel sad though.

[Blue Meanie]

Ayahuasca said:

Blue Meanie said:

Surely if the red rose isn;t the true symbol, then neither is the white one. It would be whatever symbol Athelstan used?

As far as I am aware, that would be this...

Edited by Blue Meanie on Tuesday 20th April 15:40

Looks a bit Welsh to me.


These are the arms you are looking for:

it may look a bit welsh to you, but...
"The White Dragon was the emblem of Wessex, the territory of the West Saxons. It is the banner under which King Alfred the Great defeated the great Viking Army at the Battle of Edington and it was the banner carried by the mighty King Athelstan when he smashed the combined armies of the Scots, Welsh, Norse and Irish at the Battle of Brananburgh in 937.

The Dragon was flown by Harold II, when he destroyed the Norse army at the Battle of Stamford Bridge in 1066 and it was the banner under which he and his warriors fought to the death, three weeks later protecting their homeland from invasion. The White Dragon flag of the English is shown on the battle scene of the tapestry sewn by Englishwomen to commemorate the battle. It is also seen displayed on the same tapestry featuring a scene at Westminster Abbey during the crowning ceremony for the usurper, William the bd."

http://www.wearetheenglish.com/flag_white_dragon.h...

Edited by Blue Meanie on Tuesday 20th April 16:24

[anonymous-user]

JRM said:

I yearn for England of yesteryear.

it still exists in parts of the caribbean/bermuda.

[JRM]

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

[Blue Meanie]

fbrs said:

JRM said:

I yearn for England of yesteryear.

it still exists in parts of the caribbean/bermuda.

Which England of yesteryear? The swathes of decrepit mining towns, the lack of votes for women, the outside toilets, and smog?

[cs02rm0]

Blue Meanie said:

the lack of votes for women

That bit, there, yes!

[Blue Meanie]

JRM said:

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

England would have been created the moment the different tribes united, creating one big tribe, known as England. The first KING of England was Althestan who united the tribes of 'England' into one. How else is a country defined?

PS, I only used that site as the origin of the flag.

[anonymous-user]

JRM said:

It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

only around 1000AD here... god damn viking immigrants

[JRM]

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

England would have been created the moment the different tribes united, creating one big tribe, known as England. The first KING of England was Althestan who united the tribes of 'England' into one. How else is a country defined?

PS, I only used that site as the origin of the flag.

My lack of English history is about to be horribly exposed, but even when that occured the boundaries of today's England were not the same were they? When did the Cornish join for example?

[Blue Meanie]

JRM said:

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

England would have been created the moment the different tribes united, creating one big tribe, known as England. The first KING of England was Althestan who united the tribes of 'England' into one. How else is a country defined?

PS, I only used that site as the origin of the flag.

My lack of English history is about to be horribly exposed, but even when that occured the boundaries of today's England were not the same were they? When did the Cornish join for example?

Nope, and borders are seldom solid. The Cornish joined when they were bloody well told to.

[JRM]

fbrs said:

JRM said:

I yearn for England of yesteryear.

it still exists in parts of the caribbean/bermuda.

Ah

cs02rm0 said:

Blue Meanie said:

the lack of votes for women

That bit, there, yes!

Just what I was going to say. But in answer to the post, of course there were terrible areas of olde England, but when one dreams of experiencing those times it's always (rather unrealistically perhaps) from the perspective of the higher classes in society.

I certainly can see that the bottom of today's society are much better off than they would have been a hundred years ago - part of the problem in some ways.

[JRM]

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

England would have been created the moment the different tribes united, creating one big tribe, known as England. The first KING of England was Althestan who united the tribes of 'England' into one. How else is a country defined?

PS, I only used that site as the origin of the flag.

My lack of English history is about to be horribly exposed, but even when that occured the boundaries of today's England were not the same were they? When did the Cornish join for example?

Nope, and borders are seldom solid. The Cornish joined when they were bloody well told to.

But that's rather what I meant, even when England was established it continued to grow and change, surely excluding the Cornish from a definition of 'pure' English would seeem a bit odd now. In 1000 years maybe the same could be said of Asian immigrants for example, they are all part of what makes up teh English nation now

[Blue Meanie]

JRM said:

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

That site is rather sad, at what point in history do you say 'England' was created. It was formed by multiple groups of people and continues to be, like every other nation on earth. It's rediculous to draw a line at 500AD and I'd love to know who, if anyone can trace their ancestry back to prove to be 'pure' English

England would have been created the moment the different tribes united, creating one big tribe, known as England. The first KING of England was Althestan who united the tribes of 'England' into one. How else is a country defined?

PS, I only used that site as the origin of the flag.

My lack of English history is about to be horribly exposed, but even when that occured the boundaries of today's England were not the same were they? When did the Cornish join for example?

Nope, and borders are seldom solid. The Cornish joined when they were bloody well told to.

But that's rather what I meant, even when England was established it continued to grow and change, surely excluding the Cornish from a definition of 'pure' English would seeem a bit odd now. In 1000 years maybe the same could be said of Asian immigrants for example, they are all part of what makes up teh English nation now

Erm... I never said what constituted England or not. When did I exclude the Cornish? What does Asian immigrants have to do with it? What exactly do you think I have said?

[JRM]

I THOUGHT we were discussing at what point in time it is reasonable to go back to in order to define the first English, in so much as looking at the White Dragon Flag and working out if that was truely original England.

I was trying to make the point that it is almost an impossible thing to do and that today's definition of English is muddied by all sorts of immigration, but that is no different to tribal days

[Blue Meanie]

JRM said:

I THOUGHT we were discussing at what point in time it is reasonable to go back to in order to define the first English, in so much as looking at the White Dragon Flag and working out if that was truely original England.

I was trying to make the point that it is almost an impossible thing to do and that today's definition of English is muddied by all sorts of immigration, but that is no different to tribal days

It's quite simple really. Each of the tribes were in effect countries in their own right, however, when those tribes united, into one form, then they became the country of England. The North did the same and became Scotland. If the tribes in the North had joined, they too would be England, and vice versa. Immigration has little to do with it, really, I feel. It may change the cultural content of the country, but the 'country' itself will remain the same, until it joins with another, becoming something else.

[JRM]

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

I THOUGHT we were discussing at what point in time it is reasonable to go back to in order to define the first English, in so much as looking at the White Dragon Flag and working out if that was truely original England.

I was trying to make the point that it is almost an impossible thing to do and that today's definition of English is muddied by all sorts of immigration, but that is no different to tribal days

It's quite simple really. Each of the tribes were in effect countries in their own right, however, when those tribes united, into one form, then they became the country of England. The North did the same and became Scotland. If the tribes in the North had joined, they too would be England, and vice versa. Immigration has little to do with it, really, I feel. It may change the cultural content of the country, but the 'country' itself will remain the same, until it joins with another, becoming something else.

But surely they didn't all join up at the same time? Hence my reference to the Cornish, is 'original' English at the time pre-cornish join up or not?

[Ayahuasca]

fbrs said:

JRM said:

I yearn for England of yesteryear.

it still exists in parts of the caribbean/bermuda.

The English class system is definitely alive and well in Barbados - classic was the airport the other day - three UK-bound jets lined up by the terminal - a BA 777, a Virgin 747-400 and a Thomas Cook Airbus all departing within minutes of each other and the three sets of passengers were in adjoining rows of seats.

Waiting by the BA flight - gatherings of smiling, relaxed, tanned, terribly pukka OK-yahs with pink sweaters and pearls, blazers and Panama hats, possibly just back from a few days at Sandy Lane.

By the Virgin flight - groups of slightly pink, middle-class, middle-aged suburbanites clutching four-day old copies of the Daily Mail and too much hand luggage, probably leaving after two weeks at some all-inclusive resort on the west coast.

By the Thomas Cook flight - heaving masses of harrassed looking, sunburned, overweight people with crisps and pints of lager, wearing football tops and looks of anxiety and resignation at the horrific crammed-in-with-no-legroom experience awaiting them, almost certainly counting the cost of their fortnight at a dismal concrete bottom of the range hostel on the south coast.


It was like the Monty Python 'I look down on him' sketch.

[Blue Meanie]

JRM said:

Blue Meanie said:

JRM said:

I THOUGHT we were discussing at what point in time it is reasonable to go back to in order to define the first English, in so much as looking at the White Dragon Flag and working out if that was truely original England.

I was trying to make the point that it is almost an impossible thing to do and that today's definition of English is muddied by all sorts of immigration, but that is no different to tribal days

It's quite simple really. Each of the tribes were in effect countries in their own right, however, when those tribes united, into one form, then they became the country of England. The North did the same and became Scotland. If the tribes in the North had joined, they too would be England, and vice versa. Immigration has little to do with it, really, I feel. It may change the cultural content of the country, but the 'country' itself will remain the same, until it joins with another, becoming something else.

But surely they didn't all join up at the same time? Hence my reference to the Cornish, is 'original' English at the time pre-cornish join up or not?

Well, they were britons, but presumable they were not what we think of as Englsih until they joined what we know as England. 'England' is just a subset of Britain. The Cornish were a subset of Britain.