BBC Dunkirk reporting (no surprises here)
Discussion
Sheets Tabuer said:
De gaulle was a total pain in the arse, not only did he reveal secret plans but he treated britain with complete disdain after the war.
He twice vetoed our entry to the common market which was later to become the EU
I have often wondered if his attitude to the UK was because of him being frozen out in the later years of the war but I have come to the conclusion he is typically French. Indeed he tried to wipe out the notion his country was largely secure because of the British and who can forget him telling President Johnson all americans must leave French soil.
Johnson said "does that include those buried in it"
A totally odious man with napoleon complex.
It must have taken tremendous patience on the parts of Churchill, Roosevelt, and the Allied Command Staff to tolerate such an idiot.He twice vetoed our entry to the common market which was later to become the EU
I have often wondered if his attitude to the UK was because of him being frozen out in the later years of the war but I have come to the conclusion he is typically French. Indeed he tried to wipe out the notion his country was largely secure because of the British and who can forget him telling President Johnson all americans must leave French soil.
Johnson said "does that include those buried in it"
A totally odious man with napoleon complex.
Jimbeaux said:
It must have taken tremendous patience on the parts of Churchill, Roosevelt, and the Allied Command Staff to tolerate such an idiot.
There were many discussions and at times he was cut loose as he strode around England as the head of a 1m man army not the leader of an occupied country.an interesting story
As Macmillan said: France, had made peace with Germany, had forgiven Germany for the brutality of invasion and the humiliation of four years of occupation, but it could never - never - forgive the British and Americans for the liberation.
Edited by Sheets Tabuer on Friday 28th May 22:53
I found out something nasty, when you were in certain camps you were allowed red cross aid parcels, the Germans could not just take them off you unless you dropped them.
So...
They bayonetted you in thee back, jabbed you so you dropped the parcel as you were walking back from picking it up. - they did this to a relative 9 times.
This is from a family member who was shot down & bailed out, then due to the spiral the Lancaster was in he somehow ended up back in the plane. After bailing out a 2nd time he 'chuted down into a farmers field, the farmer then promptly shot him and handed him in.
A while later, when the tide was turning, he was one of those who were force marched. The forced marches were a way of navigating round various war laws - apparently.
One by one the guards ran off until he managed to escape and somehow ended up in france (from Germany) - he still wont say how.
I have his original flight log, which was kept at base when you were up, quite sobering. It lists times, targets etc: Rhine valley - direct hit, Rhine valley - miss target, Dresden - Lost (i.e plane didn't return).
He is currently writing this down (or according to him, his memoirs) as the BBC want to look to including it in a program they are making.
For some reason he doesn't really like the Germans but truly hates the French! no french wine, cheese, cars etc
So...
They bayonetted you in thee back, jabbed you so you dropped the parcel as you were walking back from picking it up. - they did this to a relative 9 times.
This is from a family member who was shot down & bailed out, then due to the spiral the Lancaster was in he somehow ended up back in the plane. After bailing out a 2nd time he 'chuted down into a farmers field, the farmer then promptly shot him and handed him in.
A while later, when the tide was turning, he was one of those who were force marched. The forced marches were a way of navigating round various war laws - apparently.
One by one the guards ran off until he managed to escape and somehow ended up in france (from Germany) - he still wont say how.
I have his original flight log, which was kept at base when you were up, quite sobering. It lists times, targets etc: Rhine valley - direct hit, Rhine valley - miss target, Dresden - Lost (i.e plane didn't return).
He is currently writing this down (or according to him, his memoirs) as the BBC want to look to including it in a program they are making.
For some reason he doesn't really like the Germans but truly hates the French! no french wine, cheese, cars etc
Put yourself in the shoes of your typical Frenchman;
In 1940, to the North over the ditch lies the old enemy - Entente Cordiale or not - who has spent most of the last 900 odd years at war with you... they even sheltered the nobility during your revolution.
You have been told by the Germans and sympathetic French, and believed, Britain 'tricked' France into War with Germany by persuading the French to adopt the same position on Poland in 1939, hence causing Germany to invade.
You've also been told that it was the British retreating, then leaving France, that caused the collapse of the biggest army in the world at the hands of the Germans.
Then then despised Royal Navy sinks just about the entire French fleet, despite supposedly being your Allies!
British bombs fall on French towns and cities, in an effort to prosecute the British war with Germany.
The British and Americans then kick the Vichy Army through and out of North Africa.
Then, the final insult, the hated British Empire in all her past and present glory, arrive unannounced four beaches in the North to continue their war against the Germans, in the process destroying most of Normandy, liberate Caen by flattening it. Then proceed to drive several million men and hundreds of thousands of vehicles across Northern France, blowing things up as they go.
If you look at it from that perspective, you can perhaps see how the humiliation of defeat was followed by the humiliation of liberation by the British Empire? (I include America as part of the Empire in this context).
My Grandad, with Guards Armoured Div, remarked that they found liberated France to be a sullen place, and were often as not given a frosty reception once the hysteria of liberation had subsided in the towns along the route.
A complete contrast to his experience in Holland, he said.
Although, he'd been in France in 1940, and he also pointed out that the Battle of France was a short, sharp affair and it was often impossible to tell that two armies had rolled through a town in 1940. By 1944 though, the much larger dispositions, slower nature of the campaign, and massive aerial and artillery support, meant that progress through France was somewhat more obvious.
It should also be noted that in Britain we have this Pinewood Studio image of every Frenchman and Frenchwoman either being a collaborator or a resistance fighter during the occupation - when in fact most just wanted nothing to do with either 'side' and just be allowed to get on with life.
The idea that Paris liberated herself has an element of truth to it; the Germans left Paris of their own volition whilst the Allies faffed about getting the Free French to the front of the column so they could 'liberate' the place.
In 1940, to the North over the ditch lies the old enemy - Entente Cordiale or not - who has spent most of the last 900 odd years at war with you... they even sheltered the nobility during your revolution.
You have been told by the Germans and sympathetic French, and believed, Britain 'tricked' France into War with Germany by persuading the French to adopt the same position on Poland in 1939, hence causing Germany to invade.
You've also been told that it was the British retreating, then leaving France, that caused the collapse of the biggest army in the world at the hands of the Germans.
Then then despised Royal Navy sinks just about the entire French fleet, despite supposedly being your Allies!
British bombs fall on French towns and cities, in an effort to prosecute the British war with Germany.
The British and Americans then kick the Vichy Army through and out of North Africa.
Then, the final insult, the hated British Empire in all her past and present glory, arrive unannounced four beaches in the North to continue their war against the Germans, in the process destroying most of Normandy, liberate Caen by flattening it. Then proceed to drive several million men and hundreds of thousands of vehicles across Northern France, blowing things up as they go.
If you look at it from that perspective, you can perhaps see how the humiliation of defeat was followed by the humiliation of liberation by the British Empire? (I include America as part of the Empire in this context).
My Grandad, with Guards Armoured Div, remarked that they found liberated France to be a sullen place, and were often as not given a frosty reception once the hysteria of liberation had subsided in the towns along the route.
A complete contrast to his experience in Holland, he said.
Although, he'd been in France in 1940, and he also pointed out that the Battle of France was a short, sharp affair and it was often impossible to tell that two armies had rolled through a town in 1940. By 1944 though, the much larger dispositions, slower nature of the campaign, and massive aerial and artillery support, meant that progress through France was somewhat more obvious.
It should also be noted that in Britain we have this Pinewood Studio image of every Frenchman and Frenchwoman either being a collaborator or a resistance fighter during the occupation - when in fact most just wanted nothing to do with either 'side' and just be allowed to get on with life.
The idea that Paris liberated herself has an element of truth to it; the Germans left Paris of their own volition whilst the Allies faffed about getting the Free French to the front of the column so they could 'liberate' the place.
Eric Mc said:
They've been running their drama-doc from a few years ago on one of the repeat channels as well.
By and large, the BBC are best at producing dramas and documentaries on World War 2 subjects (when they bother).
Ironically, the best WW2 documentary series of all time ( The World at War) was produced by an ITV channel, Thames Television.
The World at War was the first programme I watched about the war as a child. The opening titles still send a chill through me now and, as has been said already, Olivier narrated it beautifully. A first class piece of programming.By and large, the BBC are best at producing dramas and documentaries on World War 2 subjects (when they bother).
Ironically, the best WW2 documentary series of all time ( The World at War) was produced by an ITV channel, Thames Television.
ETA: it shows just how dumbed down programming has become these days - there is an air of sincere professionalism which doesn't manifest itself in (many) modern documentaries.
Edited by fathomfive on Saturday 29th May 11:52
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff