Ken Clark - Prison doesn't work

[Willie Dee]

Fittster said:

Remove the welfare state and you'll see far less single mothers about.

Young poorly raised women will stop having sex if you remove the welfare state? LOL

Ken Clark is just saying what everyone with half a brain has known for a long time already knows. Prison does not work in the majority of instances. Deterrent does not work. This has been fact now for years.

[frosted]

But how much cheaper can drugs get , they will stronger if they are legal . Why do you think creatine sells so well ???

Look more people should be jailed and less prisons should be hotels with free breakfast and dinner . Not that it's nice food anyway . People should not be jailed for silly reasons , however driving with no insurance or licence should mean 1 month in jail . And much longer for serial offenders

[Somewhatfoolish]

Willie Dee said:

Young poorly raised women will stop having sex if you remove the welfare state? LOL

No but they'll stop having kids.

(What mad man would want to stop young poorly raised women having sex!?!?!)

Edited by Somewhatfoolish on Wednesday 30th June 17:42

[Fittster]

Willie Dee said:

Fittster said:

Remove the welfare state and you'll see far less single mothers about.

Young poorly raised women will stop having sex if you remove the welfare state? LOL

Ken Clark is just saying what everyone with half a brain has known for a long time already knows. Prison does not work in the majority of instances. Deterrent does not work. This has been fact now for years.

#

MICHAEL HOWARD SAYS PRISON WORKS

Michael Howard, Home Secretary, said in a statement today: "Today the prison population reached 60,000. It is no coincidence that recorded crime has fallen by record amounts over the last four years at the same time that the prison population has risen. Locking up persistent and dangerous criminals stops them committing further crimes. It's the Government's responsibility to provide the prison space for those whom the courts decide to send to prison. That's why 8,500 new prison places will be made available by the year 2000.

"It is worth remembering that the vast majority of criminals receive non-custodial penalties. Prison should be, and is, reserved for the most serious and persistent offenders.

"For those sent to prison by the courts it is important to ensure that prison conditions are decent and that every effort is made to rehabilitate prisoners. This Government has done far more than the last Labour government to help achieve these objectives. Slopping out has ended. Cramming three prisoners into cells built for one has ended: in 1979 nearly 5,000 prisoners lived in these conditions. And the number of hours spent on prisoner education has doubled since 1979, far outstripping the increase in the numbers in prison.

"The next Conservative government also has a duty to make proper provision for the consequences of the Crime Act. Our White Paper on sentencing sets out plans to do just that. 12,600 new prison places would be made available by the year 2012 for this purpose. That is broadly the same rate of prison building as the government has actually achieved since 1979 so we have a clear and credible way of delivering our policy using the private finance initiative. It will cost more to lock up repeat rapists, armed robbers and professional drug dealers and burglars. But it is money well spent protecting the public. And it will mean many fewer victims in the future.

"Contrast this with Labour. They wrecked our plans for tough minimum sentences for persistent burglars and drug dealers. They believe that they were unjust to burglars and drug dealers. But even without these sentences there is a need for a significant number of new prisons over the next few years. Four contracts for new prisons will have to be awarded during next year to cope with increasing numbers.

"Labour cannot use the private finance initiative to build them because they are ideologically opposed to the private management of prisons. Jack Straw called the very idea 'morally repugnant'. So they would have to find around £180 million of public capital over the next three years to build them instead. The money isn't there. It is yet another black hole in Labour's plans. Jack Straw needs to answer now, this very day, how he would fill it."


If the choice is life with child and no benefits or abortion you'll see a drop in the part of the population who are most likely to go on to commit crime.

[hairykrishna]

frosted said:

But how much cheaper can drugs get , they will stronger if they are legal .

Much cheaper.

[Fittster]

hairykrishna said:

frosted said:

But how much cheaper can drugs get , they will stronger if they are legal .

Much cheaper.

So there won't be huge taxes on them?

[hairykrishna]

Fittster said:

hairykrishna said:

frosted said:

But how much cheaper can drugs get , they will stronger if they are legal .

Much cheaper.

So there won't be huge taxes on them?

There's a lot of room for huge taxes while still pushing prices down. Coke and heroin, the biggest problem drugs for crime, have 1000's of percent mark up from the dock price in country of origin to the street prices here.

[frosted]

So how come weed for example is more expensive in Amsterdam than it is here ?

[thetrash]

Tallbut Buxomly said:

I have posted this in other threads. the problem is like someone else said money. Pure and simple.

There are lots of plans in place to reduce the prison service bill.

I can tell you that almost every prison apparently pays a fine very year for breach of health and safety or was it eu law?? regarding a certain item within prisons.

There are fewer and fewer prison officers much like with the police.Only way to keep the prisons functioning is to keep the inmates happy so they cooperate and not kick off.

You cant stop people from commiting criminal acts but you can try correct their behaviour which prison staff admirably attempt to do but with very limited resources.

Personally was very dissapointed at the lack of support for the prison service from the new government

+1

I couldn't believe about the item that HMPS get fined for when I first heard about it.

[Tallbut Buxomly]

thetrash said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

I have posted this in other threads. the problem is like someone else said money. Pure and simple.

There are lots of plans in place to reduce the prison service bill.

I can tell you that almost every prison apparently pays a fine very year for breach of health and safety or was it eu law?? regarding a certain item within prisons.

There are fewer and fewer prison officers much like with the police.Only way to keep the prisons functioning is to keep the inmates happy so they cooperate and not kick off.

You cant stop people from commiting criminal acts but you can try correct their behaviour which prison staff admirably attempt to do but with very limited resources.

Personally was very dissapointed at the lack of support for the prison service from the new government

+1

I couldn't believe about the item that HMPS get fined for when I first heard about it.

Sarcasm or are we thinking about the same thing?

Did you hear the one about the Governers bonus???

If i seems a bit cryptic its purely because i am not too sure how much i am allowed to say about what goes on behind those walls.

Edited by Tallbut Buxomly on Wednesday 30th June 19:21

[thetrash]

Tallbut Buxomly said:

thetrash said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

I have posted this in other threads. the problem is like someone else said money. Pure and simple.

There are lots of plans in place to reduce the prison service bill.

I can tell you that almost every prison apparently pays a fine very year for breach of health and safety or was it eu law?? regarding a certain item within prisons.

There are fewer and fewer prison officers much like with the police.Only way to keep the prisons functioning is to keep the inmates happy so they cooperate and not kick off.

You cant stop people from commiting criminal acts but you can try correct their behaviour which prison staff admirably attempt to do but with very limited resources.

Personally was very dissapointed at the lack of support for the prison service from the new government

+1

I couldn't believe about the item that HMPS get fined for when I first heard about it.

Sarcasm or are we thinking about the same thing?

Did you hear the one about the Governers bonus???

If i seems a bit cryptic its purely because i am not too sure how much i am allowed to say about what goes on behind those walls.

Edited by Tallbut Buxomly on Wednesday 30th June 19:21

Same thing, no sarcasm here. I dont know what else would replace it and do the same job?

Nope, not heard about the governors bonus?

[Tallbut Buxomly]

thetrash said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

thetrash said:

Tallbut Buxomly said:

I have posted this in other threads. the problem is like someone else said money. Pure and simple.

There are lots of plans in place to reduce the prison service bill.

I can tell you that almost every prison apparently pays a fine very year for breach of health and safety or was it eu law?? regarding a certain item within prisons.

There are fewer and fewer prison officers much like with the police.Only way to keep the prisons functioning is to keep the inmates happy so they cooperate and not kick off.

You cant stop people from commiting criminal acts but you can try correct their behaviour which prison staff admirably attempt to do but with very limited resources.

Personally was very dissapointed at the lack of support for the prison service from the new government

+1

I couldn't believe about the item that HMPS get fined for when I first heard about it.

Sarcasm or are we thinking about the same thing?

Did you hear the one about the Governers bonus???

If i seems a bit cryptic its purely because i am not too sure how much i am allowed to say about what goes on behind those walls.

Edited by Tallbut Buxomly on Wednesday 30th June 19:21

Same thing, no sarcasm here. I dont know what else would replace it and do the same job?

Nope, not heard about the governors bonus?

Ohhh boy have you missed a trick then. A scandal if public ever heard about it i reckon. major security issue in my and a few officers i have discussed it with's eyes.

[hairykrishna]

frosted said:

So how come weed for example is more expensive in Amsterdam than it is here ?

Weed is a very different market from coke and heroin for a start. It is also not 100% legal in Holland; the coffee shops are purchasing from people who are operating illegally and, in many cases, breaking the law themselves. If you do a like for like (i.e. same quality) price comparison and stray more than 1/2 a mile from Amsterdam Centraal it's about the same price as here or cheaper anyway.

[cymtriks]

The real Apache said:

Somewhatfoolish said:

The reason drugs should be legalised is that one should have the right to put what one wants in ones body. Simple as that.

you could legalise prostetution on that principle.....2 birds with 1 stone!

fbrs said:

...drugs are expensive because they are illegal. the fact that they are illegal deters no one from using them or many from selling them. so make them legal. price drops, quality goes up and junkies dont have to rob everyone to pay for it, st just give it to them.

It's not the drugs and prostitution that's the problem, it's all the stuff that comes with them.

Just because drugs are legal does not mean that the people supplying them are suddenly going to declare their earnings and live saintly lives. Nor does it follow that druggies given a cheaper supply will not turn to crime to buy it as many never had much of an income in the first place.

Same goes for prostitution. Making it legal won't stop trafficking, people being forced into it or magically stop the spread of nasty diseases.

[Pesty]

DonkeyApple said:

From th info I can gather on the net

"Hitler's trial began on 26 February 1924, and Hitler was sentenced to five years Festungshaft (literally fortress confinement) for high treason. He only served 8 months, during which time he wrote the first part of his book "Mein Kampf"

Just think

What if they had made him serve the full term!!! (and took his pen off him ! )

still think prison does not work?

Prison works as long as the sentenses are long enough to keep the fkers away from us. Would he still have had the same contacts and power by the time he got out after 5 years?


As for prisons not working as a deterant I recon if you drew an imaginary line down he middle of the UK on the left kept things as they are and on the right mandatory 10 years no parole 10 years means 10 years for car theft. it would get worse on one side and better on other.

Edited by Pesty on Thursday 1st July 01:26

[turbobloke]

Pesty said:

Prison works as long as the sentenses are long enough to keep the fkers away from us.

For serious offenders and frequent prison residents that's the only definition of works that matters.

[10 Pence Short]

turbobloke said:

Pesty said:

Prison works as long as the sentenses are long enough to keep the fkers away from us.

For serious offenders and frequent prison residents that's the only definition of works that matters.

I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of the problem in prison overcrowding is not very serious offenders who pose a specific risk to public safety. I'd say it was low level repeat offenders who clog up Catagory B and C places as they are processed on their (re) entry into prison and dispersal from then on. They are not serving long sentences.

In that sense, the concept of locking them up and keeping the 'fkers' away from us is moot. All they will do in that scenario is cost the tax payer more than their crimes do in upkeep whilst making no discernable difference too public safety.

Yes, give them longer sentences- just make them long enough so that during the time inside they get some education and at least something tangible to say the time inside was worthwhile.

Prison is boarding school like in its access to a captive audience. Whilst prisoners should be punished by having their freedom removed and lending their free time to contemplation of how they got there, they should spend their 'working day' being educated. Prisons should become dedicated centres of education, offering vocational and academic courses designed to take in criminals and produce qualified, employable and productive members of society. They should be able to try and complete the job the education system didn't manage the first time around.

I agree wholeheartedly with the person earlier in the thread who suggested release should be dependent on reaching educational targets.

[turbobloke]

10 Pence Short said:

turbobloke said:

Pesty said:

Prison works as long as the sentenses are long enough to keep the fkers away from us.

For serious offenders and frequent prison residents that's the only definition of works that matters.

I would hazard a guess and say the vast majority of the problem in prison overcrowding is not very serious offenders who pose a specific risk to public safety. I'd say it was low level repeat offenders who clog up Catagory B and C places as they are processed on their (re) entry into prison and dispersal from then on. They are not serving long sentences.

In that sense, the concept of locking them up and keeping the 'fkers' away from us is moot. All they will do in that scenario is cost the tax payer more than their crimes do in upkeep whilst making no discernable difference too public safety.

Yes, give them longer sentences- just make them long enough so that during the time inside they get some education and at least something tangible to say the time inside was worthwhile.

Prison is boarding school like in its access to a captive audience. Whilst prisoners should be punished by having their freedom removed and lending their free time to contemplation of how they got there, they should spend their 'working day' being educated. Prisons should become dedicated centres of education, offering vocational and academic courses designed to take in criminals and produce qualified, employable and productive members of society. They should be able to try and complete the job the education system didn't manage the first time around.

I agree wholeheartedly with the person earlier in the thread who suggested release should be dependent on reaching educational targets.

That last point is a good one but my work on the education side in HMYOI and HMP suggests that while there will be the occasional degree candidate, the educational ceiling of many will barely exceed basic literacy and numeracy but that should be a key aim alongside introducing the concept of civilised behaviour and any workplace skills that can be assimilated.

My point about repeat offenders followed the term serious and yes, the repeat offences would need to be at a level based on that rare commodity, sound judgement. The basis for my remark was some information from ACPO and Civitas which I have no reason to doubt, stating that the vast majority of police time is spent on a well-known cadre of about 120,000 unreformed repeat offenders - not those trying to take a free ride on the tube - and that if the prison capacity was increased from ca. 80,000 to 120,000 this would indeed make our local part of the world considerably safer and bring a higher quality of life generally. There must come a point where a person's total unwillingness to be reformed is recognised, and at that point sentecing must reflect the needs of the many and not unduly influenced by bleeding heart handwringers whining about the needs of one.

[10 Pence Short]

There will always be people who are unwilling to be reformed. As people reoffend they should be put into a rapidly escalating austerity of punishment; treat it as a 'breach' (which prisoners try to avoid having on their prison record). Sentencing for another imprisonable offence should have an automatic 1 year added to the tarrif for reoffence 1, 2 years for reoffence 2 etc. Reoffending should prevent a prisoner from ever achieving Cat D status in prison. They should then be excluded from being on Enhanced regime. They should be prevented from getting HDC or ROTL entitlement.

The only way they can gain the entitlements in prison, such as Enhanced regime, Cat D status, HDC and ROTL should be by proving a serious intent the modify behaviour outside. This may be as simple as getting to a required level of literacy and numeracy. It may be achieving an academic or vocational qualification.

We have to accept that you can't stop every offender from reoffending, but we also have to stop pretending that punishment alone will prevent it, either. We have neither the morals or the resources to imprison people for life for repetetive minor offending and nor should we; our realistic aim as a society should be to treat the causes at every stage of life, well before a potential offender reaches adulthood, and when that doesn't work and the offender reaches prison, have another go at it in a tougher environment.

[Dunclane]

Isle of Sheppey .... check
Massive Electric Fence... check
Armed Guards...Done!