Ken Clark - Prison doesn't work
Discussion
10 Pence Short said:
We have to accept that you can't stop every offender from reoffending, but we also have to stop pretending that punishment alone will prevent it, either.
Just taking that point, for the types of individual ACPO were referring to, it wasn't prevention that prison was meant to lead to (deterrent). As Pesty indicated in the post I originally replied to, there should be a shift to looking after others' interest at a suitable point rather than repeatedly try to do what won't work if the individual is determined for it not to work.
Einstein may not have had imprisonment of repeat offenders in mind when he said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insane, but it fits. If reform isn't ever going to happen then the greater good of the greater number emerges as good reason to keep determined offenders where they can do no more harm. As to affordability, there was an article recently that put prison life as expensive as Eton but that's only if you accept the current regime as unavoidable. Back to repeating mistakes.
turbobloke said:
10 Pence Short said:
We have to accept that you can't stop every offender from reoffending, but we also have to stop pretending that punishment alone will prevent it, either.
Just taking that point, for the types of individual ACPO were referring to, it wasn't prevention that prison was meant to lead to (deterrent). As Pesty indicated in the post I originally replied to, there should be a shift to looking after others' interest at a suitable point rather than repeatedly try to do what won't work if the individual is determined for it not to work.
Einstein may not have had imprisonment of repeat offenders in mind when he said doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insane, but it fits. If reform isn't ever going to happen then the greater good of the greater number emerges as good reason to keep determined offenders where they can do no more harm. As to affordability, there was an article recently that put prison life as expensive as Eton but that's only if you accept the current regime as unavoidable. Back to repeating mistakes.
Those that don't want to be helped will find the system less helpful to them; extended sentences on an increasing, sliding scale, no access to enhanced regimes, 22 hours a day in the cell, no Cat D, no HDC early release and no ROTL. At any stage the prisoner can decide there is merit in at least trying to reform and will only be rewarded on results, rather than the initial effort.
It's about seeing prison as a chance to change people for the better whilst still performing its role as punishment and protection for society.
mondeoman said:
So why should we now do even more for them, give them even more chances and opportunities when they have already turned their backs on us, rather than just taking them out of society for their natural born days?
And it means that maybe, just maybe, that one former inmate decides to start a new legit career with the chance given to him, rather than bash your mrs to death for the tenner in her purse.
The real Apache said:
10PS, do you not think you could use your, er, expertise in this situation to influence your MP or something? perhaps you already have but your ideas make a lot of sense
I haven't and wouldn't profess to be any kind of expert after such a short space of time in there, but I was surprised by how fundamentally flawed the system was for most inmates. There were lots of bad apples who deserved to be locked up, but there were also lots of prisoners who openly admitted they felt there was no option to make a crust other than crime. Some had drug problems that lead to petty theft after petty theft and short sentence after short sentence.You didn't have to be a rocket scientist in there to realise the system was broken, running at the ragged edge and making very little effort to do anything other than hold the prisoners securely.
A lot of the things people suggest in these threads already happen; there are work programs in prison that provide commercial functions both within and outside of the prison system. They should be applauded. There are regime systems that prevent misbehaving prisoners from getting the perks seen in misleading newspaper reports and checks and balances on all sorts of things. But they don't make good stories.
After spending some time going through the justice system I am no less right wing or more supportive of criminals than I ever was beforehand. What I find frustrating is that prison can and should be so much more than just a place to reside prisoners. They should be a hive of knowledge and enthusiasm to work on those who have a chance of becoming productive and preventing them from being a recurring, expensive problem.
Yes, lock the ones up who are genuine career criminals who operate out of greed or tyranny rather than necessity- punish them hard and consistantly. But the worst mistake you can make is to tar all the inmates with the same brush.
The wider picture is also about recognising that when people can't be changed for the better because they have no wish to be changed and will resist attempts to gey them to change, it's pointless to keep repeating the same failed release-reoffend cycle, it's time to think of the greater number adversely affected by this cycle of failure.
10 Pence Short said:
After spending some time going through the justice system I am no less right wing or more supportive of criminals than I ever was beforehand. What I find frustrating is that prison can and should be so much more than just a place to reside prisoners. They should be a hive of knowledge and enthusiasm to work on those who have a chance of becoming productive and preventing them from being a recurring, expensive problem.
Then as you will also know, the current regime runs counter to such aims while professing the opposite, lipservice alone. The Ed Wing is usually seen as a pointless soft option and transit between cells and the Ed Wing is a security issue so there is often one 'trip' after which several hours in succession are dedicated to meeting an arbitrary target for time spent there. A 3 hour 'lesson' is beyond most mainstream kids. No wonder prison staff are quite pleased that certain substances make their way into jails, keeping the lid on confrontational behaviour chemically.So while youth offending and minor adult offeding has to be worth the investment of education, training and lifestyle counselling, there are still going to be repeat offenders who are simply not interested in getting an NVQ or going straight. Rrpeatedly sentencing and releasing serious and repeat offenders is a waste of time, if sentences were more appropriate and sufficient prison places were available for all the volunteers who are keen to pass the entry test over and over again, a far greater number of people would benefit enormously.
turbobloke said:
The wider picture is also about recognising that when people can't be changed for the better because they have no wish to be changed and will resist attempts to gey them to change, it's pointless to keep repeating the same failed release-reoffend cycle, it's time to think of the greater number adversely affected by this cycle of failure.
I agree, only the current system does very little to try and change anyone.It's unbelievable that if you're caught at 33mph you're offered a Safety Awareness Course where you spend a day being educated as to the danger of what you've done. Yet if you nearly kill someone by driving at high speed on a public road and are then convicted of Dangerous Driving, no education happens at all, just punishment.
The system should accomodate the wishes of us both; on one hand prisoners are given the tools and opportunity in prison to change their ways and, if they choose to ignore that chance and continue offending, their treatment by The System becomes more and more harsh. It's a fair use of carrot and stick.
10 Pence Short said:
Labour focused far too much on the punishment element...
Sorry 10PS, but Labour did nothing of the sort. 1/3rd off for pleading guilty once all the witnesses have turned up to court, early release, allowing violent filth to avoid jail so there was space for motorists and tax evading grannies.
Ozzie Osmond said:
...It makes zero sense keeping most of those clowns in prison at a cost around £40,000 per prisoner per year. There has to be a better, more constructive and more cost-effective way of dealing with most offenders.
Or, we could look at better, more cost effective ways to imprison societies scum. To that end we need scale.Its no good having various category prisons scattered the land over. What we should have is one single prison (a very very large one) with maximum security in the centre and various grades heading out in rings.
Maximum security is then protected by medium and low security measures in layers.
Costs can further be reduced by having prison focus on the punishment aspect with rehabilitation work being undertaken (principally by the voluntary sector) in the minimum security area outside the final prison wall.
Prisoners would gravitate towards the 'outside' after their punishment was completed. Once they had then completed their rehabilitation plan they could be released.
We've reduced the 'building' cost about as low as it'll go by this point so now we'd need to address other elements of cost. Prison guard wages aren't high, so where is the 40k a year going?
Text books and basic secondary education cost very little to deliver - classes could be conducted by lower security inmates working towards their release dates.
Food would now be cooked by other inmates in one single large scale kitchen / food processing plant within the prison. So that cost has largely gone (basic ingreedients would be grown by other inmates as part of their rehab).
PlayStations, TVs and gyms etc have no place what-so-ever in prisons. People are not put there to enjoy themselves.
Seriously... just what does the prison service waste that 40k doing? They ain't paying the guards and they ain't spedning it on new prisons, so what are they actually doing with it?
Gordon Gekko on Prisons: Well, I appreciate the opportunity you're giving me Mr. Clegg as a shareholder in UK Plc, to speak.Well, ladies and gentlemen we're not here to indulge in fantasy but in political and economic reality. England, England has become a second-rate power. Its trade deficit and its fiscal deficit are at nightmare proportions. Now, in the days of political accountability when our country was a top industrial power, there was accountability to the citizen. The Churchills, the Thatchers, the men and women that built this great industrial empire, made sure of it because it was their lives at stake. Today, politicians have no stake in the country! The last government are multi-millionaires and don't even live here. And where does Mr. Blair put his million-dollar salary? Not in the UK; he's in tax exile abroad. You own the country. That's right, you, the citizen. And you are all being royally screwed over by these, these polticians and bleeding heart liberals, with their early release, their rehabilitation and education demands, their huggy feely and noones to blame mindset.
The Guardian Readers: This is an outrage! You're out of line Gekko!
Gordon Gekko On Prisons: England, Mr. Clegg, England has 139 different prisons each costing an average of 14 million pounds a year. Now, I have spent the last two months analyzing what all these guys do, and I still can't figure it out. One thing I do know is that our little country lost 200 billion pounds last year, and I'll bet that half of that was spent in all the paperwork going back and forth between all these various prisons. The new law of evolution in English law & order seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven years, there were 200,000 prisoners given early release who have mostly gone on to reoffend. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of justice. I am a liberator of it! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that prison, for lack of a better word, is good. Prison is right, prison works. Prison clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the rehabilitationary spirit. Prison, in all of its forms; maximum security, medium security, open, young offenders have marked the upward surge of mankind. And prison, you mark my words, will not only save law & order, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Thank you very much.
Eejited for speeling
The Guardian Readers: This is an outrage! You're out of line Gekko!
Gordon Gekko On Prisons: England, Mr. Clegg, England has 139 different prisons each costing an average of 14 million pounds a year. Now, I have spent the last two months analyzing what all these guys do, and I still can't figure it out. One thing I do know is that our little country lost 200 billion pounds last year, and I'll bet that half of that was spent in all the paperwork going back and forth between all these various prisons. The new law of evolution in English law & order seems to be survival of the unfittest. Well, in my book you either do it right or you get eliminated. In the last seven years, there were 200,000 prisoners given early release who have mostly gone on to reoffend. Thank you. I am not a destroyer of justice. I am a liberator of it! The point is, ladies and gentleman, that prison, for lack of a better word, is good. Prison is right, prison works. Prison clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the rehabilitationary spirit. Prison, in all of its forms; maximum security, medium security, open, young offenders have marked the upward surge of mankind. And prison, you mark my words, will not only save law & order, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the United Kingdom of Great Britain. Thank you very much.
Eejited for speeling
Edited by 7thCircleAcolyte on Thursday 1st July 17:02
The real Apache said:
rypt said:
The real Apache said:
rypt said:
10 Pence Short said:
Some had drug problems that lead to petty theft after petty theft and short sentence after short sentence.
Was their choice to take drugs ...rypt said:
The real Apache said:
rypt said:
The real Apache said:
rypt said:
10 Pence Short said:
Some had drug problems that lead to petty theft after petty theft and short sentence after short sentence.
Was their choice to take drugs ...There is also the effect of mental health, reliance on medication etc which is just as ruinous as narcotic addiction.
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