Call to ban scrums in school rugby, on safety grounds.
Discussion
HundredthIdiot said:
Some recognition of natural aptitude would be a start. Forcing scrawny slow-twitchers like myself to do things like sprinting, shotput and rugby is not good. At the age of 36 I now cycle competitively (in the sense of competing, not winning) and do a bit of running, but it took a long time after I left school to get over the idea that I was crap at everything rather than just crap at ball sports and fast-twitch stuff.
I disliked games less at secondary school than at primary school because rugby requires less aptitude to take part effectively than football does - or at least that was my experience of it.Although, I must say, once we were old enough to be given a choice of what we did, I just played squash.
HundredthIdiot said:
Whilst I'm no fan of taking out the fun and excitement by watering down sports, I do think that the most important aspect of school sports is to leave the kids with a sense of achievement and positive outlook towards physical exercise that will give them a good chance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle in the longer term.
Well said, sir!The kids MUST have the sense of achievement, but the Labour idiots are the ones who expect sports days to be without winners... stuff and fecking nonsense!
Corsair7 said:
OK, I haven't played Rugby for 20 years. I guess the teaching hasn't changed a great deal though. Rugby should be played by people who are physically fit to play it, otherwise injuries occur more readily. In school however, the whim of the PE teacher would be that this week we play Rugby. Do the PE teachers now have sufficient time to get the kids fit before starting play? I doubt it. Do the PE teachers have the abiltiy to teach the game properly? I doubt it. No, I'd guess he'd start with 40 or so kids, of which 50% at least have ZERO interest in the game, dont know the rules or the saftey aspects, and throw them into a game. Some will be good, and will be encouraged into the game. In order for the 'some that are good' to move forward in the game, everyone else has to play the game that they have no interest in.
Rugby good for fitness? Umm, no, disagree. Its the otherway around, isnt it? You have to be very fit to play rugby. The fitness comes first, then the game. You dont get fit playing rugby, you get fit to play rugby. You get fit hitting the road running, build strength down the gym. Rugby players dont get fit playing the game, the practice games sharpen the skills and tactics. If theywant to work on the strength and fitness they do other things. If you want to get a bunch of school kids fit AND healthy, would you choose to take them ont he Rugby pitch to achieve this? Or would it be better to get them doing gym classes, areobics and such like? I was in the military 12 years, and the fitness coaches NEVER used a sport like Rugby as a method of getting fit. Indeed, I'd say that theres a distinct risk in playing Rugby if you're not already very fit.
Long term fitness? Yes, as my example, long term, rugby players invariably end up with long term injuries. Back and shoulder injuries are common place. If you are front row, you can expect facial deformaties, teeth missing, cauliflower ears. If you're one of the 'poofters' in the backs, you're career will likly be ended by ligament damage to the knees or ankles caused by tackles.
I'm not anti rugby, I enjoyed playing it myself, and enjoy it over football as a spectator sport. But it isn't an ideal sport for geting people fit. If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
Do you really think that teaching of a sport in school hasn't changed a lot in 20 years? what would make you think that? Rugby good for fitness? Umm, no, disagree. Its the otherway around, isnt it? You have to be very fit to play rugby. The fitness comes first, then the game. You dont get fit playing rugby, you get fit to play rugby. You get fit hitting the road running, build strength down the gym. Rugby players dont get fit playing the game, the practice games sharpen the skills and tactics. If theywant to work on the strength and fitness they do other things. If you want to get a bunch of school kids fit AND healthy, would you choose to take them ont he Rugby pitch to achieve this? Or would it be better to get them doing gym classes, areobics and such like? I was in the military 12 years, and the fitness coaches NEVER used a sport like Rugby as a method of getting fit. Indeed, I'd say that theres a distinct risk in playing Rugby if you're not already very fit.
Long term fitness? Yes, as my example, long term, rugby players invariably end up with long term injuries. Back and shoulder injuries are common place. If you are front row, you can expect facial deformaties, teeth missing, cauliflower ears. If you're one of the 'poofters' in the backs, you're career will likly be ended by ligament damage to the knees or ankles caused by tackles.
I'm not anti rugby, I enjoyed playing it myself, and enjoy it over football as a spectator sport. But it isn't an ideal sport for geting people fit. If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
The whim of the teacher has no real bearing in what sports are chosen, however the national curriculum does. You are correct however that some of the kids will not be interested in sport, (50% is that an accurate figure or one you made up?). Would you also allow children not to take Maths and English because they aren't interested in it? However to teach rugby in schools you have to undertake the Rugby Ready Program at a bare minimum and usually a Level 1 coaching course.
Go to the IRB Rugby Ready site, you will see how the IRB has set the format for the teaching of rugby through out the age groups. You may notice that this is more than slightly different from the coaching you received at school.
It's an interesting argument you've put for rugby not being good for fitness. So you are saying that a sport that requires a high degree of fitness and allows the coach/teacher to introduce other fitness concepts off the back of the sport is not good at promoting fitness to children?
In your 12 years in the military you never played touch rugby? Odd that but during my +12 years and counting in the military, touch rugby along with basketball and a whole other range of sports have been used to promote fitness, and off the back of those sports, shown nutrition stretching regimes and specific training required to play at a reasonable level. The fact that to play rugby requires a degree of fitness, has done wonders to promote fitness and encourage people into the gym, where as before they would have headed to the NAAFI for another couple of pints. However going back to kids, in your 12 years in the military would a 2 hours fitness component make a significant difference in your physical fitness? Would you say to an infantry unit, guys 2 hours fitness session per week and you'll be fine? Would you baws, the purpose of sports in school is show that fitness is available, and introduce them to a range of sports that they wouldn't normally have access to. If you wanted to make inroads into child obesity and lack of fitness you would be doing 1-2 hours per day.
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 11:30
HundredthIdiot said:
Some recognition of natural aptitude would be a start. Forcing scrawny slow-twitchers like myself to do things like sprinting, shotput and rugby is not good. At the age of 36 I now cycle competitively (in the sense of competing, not winning) and do a bit of running, but it took a long time after I left school to get over the idea that I was crap at everything rather than just crap at ball sports and fast-twitch stuff.
Our PE teacher was a "faces in the mud" rugby type. I remember those winter sessions with no fondness at all.
Whilst I'm no fan of taking out the fun and excitement by watering down sports, I do think that the most important aspect of school sports is to leave the kids with a sense of achievement and positive outlook towards physical exercise that will give them a good chance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle in the longer term.
I take your points, I'm just trying to envisage a school which is able to stream a class of pupils and still have enough to take a meaningful lesson, once you have them streamed into their chosen areas. It must be possible as the Australian Institue of Sports has been doing this for years. Our PE teacher was a "faces in the mud" rugby type. I remember those winter sessions with no fondness at all.
Whilst I'm no fan of taking out the fun and excitement by watering down sports, I do think that the most important aspect of school sports is to leave the kids with a sense of achievement and positive outlook towards physical exercise that will give them a good chance of maintaining a healthy lifestyle in the longer term.
Maybe a change of emphasis would be better for some pupils, away from trying to introduce them to a new sport, and instead promoting healthy living. So instead of cross country runs in January (how I didn't get hypothermia I will never know) Would the answer be gym sessions? lessons on nutrition?
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 11:33
otolith said:
Bosshogg76 said:
lessons on nutrition?
Not sure of the value of that - you can boil enough information to eat healthily for life down to a handful of bullet points and give it to them on a laminated card. I think most people know what they should be eating, they just don't choose to.Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
Raises an interesting observation for me this thread.
Most schools force kids to play Rugby. Especially in Wales. Most of the kids I went to school with had little interest in Rugby, and didnt want to play this sport. Yet for the glory of the PE teacher, the school, the area and the country, many were forced to play this sport.
So, the question is, why? Its not a particulary good game for promoting fitness, causes many injuries, and most of the participants dont want to do it. So how come schools (especially regionally) are allowed to force kids into doing it? You see most professional rugby players with game related injuries and disfigerments, and most successful careers seem to end in injuries. Look at Gavin Henson, not exactly 'old', yet his list of injuries reads like a road accident victim. He'll probably end up long term disabled from his injuries to some extent. ANd he's represents the 0.00002% that made a career from being forced into playing Rugby as a child.
I went to school in the 70's and 80's in Wales, and you palyed rugby throughout the winter. I'd say less than 20% of the kids would have choosen to do it. ANd it was at times quite brutal. THe school produced several International class players over the decades, and the sport was good to them. Most of the other kids however were just the unwilling tackle fodder. Ask the kids and the majority dont want to play this sport. So what is the justification for playing it?
Just to a pick up on a few of your points.Most schools force kids to play Rugby. Especially in Wales. Most of the kids I went to school with had little interest in Rugby, and didnt want to play this sport. Yet for the glory of the PE teacher, the school, the area and the country, many were forced to play this sport.
So, the question is, why? Its not a particulary good game for promoting fitness, causes many injuries, and most of the participants dont want to do it. So how come schools (especially regionally) are allowed to force kids into doing it? You see most professional rugby players with game related injuries and disfigerments, and most successful careers seem to end in injuries. Look at Gavin Henson, not exactly 'old', yet his list of injuries reads like a road accident victim. He'll probably end up long term disabled from his injuries to some extent. ANd he's represents the 0.00002% that made a career from being forced into playing Rugby as a child.
I went to school in the 70's and 80's in Wales, and you palyed rugby throughout the winter. I'd say less than 20% of the kids would have choosen to do it. ANd it was at times quite brutal. THe school produced several International class players over the decades, and the sport was good to them. Most of the other kids however were just the unwilling tackle fodder. Ask the kids and the majority dont want to play this sport. So what is the justification for playing it?
1) "Not particularly good at promoting fitness?" Have you played rugby recently? in fact forget recently as through out the history of the game fitness was/is the corner stone of the game.
2) On the flip side, why in towns such as Newcastle is football foisted upon kids? How many are injured through reckless tacles?
3) How may kids would actually play any sport at all given the choice?
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 10:04
Rugby good for fitness? Umm, no, disagree. Its the otherway around, isnt it? You have to be very fit to play rugby. The fitness comes first, then the game. You dont get fit playing rugby, you get fit to play rugby. You get fit hitting the road running, build strength down the gym. Rugby players dont get fit playing the game, the practice games sharpen the skills and tactics. If theywant to work on the strength and fitness they do other things. If you want to get a bunch of school kids fit AND healthy, would you choose to take them ont he Rugby pitch to achieve this? Or would it be better to get them doing gym classes, areobics and such like? I was in the military 12 years, and the fitness coaches NEVER used a sport like Rugby as a method of getting fit. Indeed, I'd say that theres a distinct risk in playing Rugby if you're not already very fit.
Long term fitness? Yes, as my example, long term, rugby players invariably end up with long term injuries. Back and shoulder injuries are common place. If you are front row, you can expect facial deformaties, teeth missing, cauliflower ears. If you're one of the 'poofters' in the backs, you're career will likly be ended by ligament damage to the knees or ankles caused by tackles.
I'm not anti rugby, I enjoyed playing it myself, and enjoy it over football as a spectator sport. But it isn't an ideal sport for geting people fit. If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
The whim of the teacher has no real bearing in what sports are chosen, however the national curriculum does. You are correct however that some of the kids will not be interested in sport, (50% is that an accurate figure or one you made up?). Would you also allow children not to take Maths and English because they aren't interested in it? However to teach rugby in schools you have to undertake the Rugby Ready Program at a bare minimum and usually a Level 1 coaching course.
Go to the IRB Rugby Ready site, you will see how the IRB has set the format for the teaching of rugby through out the age groups. You may notice that this is more than slightly different from the coaching you received at school.
It's an interesting argument you've put for rugby not being good for fitness. So you are saying that a sport that requires a high degree of fitness and allows the coach/teacher to introduce other fitness concepts off the back of the sport is not good at promoting fitness to children?
In your 12 years in the military you never played touch rugby? Odd that but during my +12 years and counting in the military, touch rugby along with basketball and a whole other range of sports have been used to promote fitness, and off the back of those sports, shown nutrition stretching regimes and specific training required to play at a reasonable level. The fact that to play rugby requires a degree of fitness, has done wonders to promote fitness and encourage people into the gym, where as before they would have headed to the NAAFI for another couple of pints. However going back to kids, in your 12 years in the military would a 2 hours fitness component make a significant difference in your physical fitness? Would you say to an infantry unit, guys 2 hours fitness session per week and you'll be fine? Would you baws, the purpose of sports in school is show that fitness is available, and introduce them to a range of sports that they wouldn't normally have access to. If you wanted to make inroads into child obesity and lack of fitness you would be doing 1-2 hours per day.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
Edited by Corsair7 on Monday 5th July 12:06
That's the question - no easy answers so far.
I guess you have to define your objectives. Forcing kids to spend two hours a week doing something they hate isn't really achieving anything - maybe you need to spend that time showing them something that they will want to do in their own time, otherwise you just put them off physical activity for life. I wonder whether for the kids who don't enjoy the track and field stuff it would be better to take them out for one full day a month experiencing something new than for two one hour sessions a week with a big chunk of that taken up by changing and showering. With a full day, you've got more scope for things like orienteering, mountain biking, etc.
I also wonder whether the degree of supervision and parental transport causes problems. My school friends and I spent most of our free time fishing, which isn't particularly strenuous, but we got their on our bikes with our kit on our backs, not in mummy's 4x4.
I guess you have to define your objectives. Forcing kids to spend two hours a week doing something they hate isn't really achieving anything - maybe you need to spend that time showing them something that they will want to do in their own time, otherwise you just put them off physical activity for life. I wonder whether for the kids who don't enjoy the track and field stuff it would be better to take them out for one full day a month experiencing something new than for two one hour sessions a week with a big chunk of that taken up by changing and showering. With a full day, you've got more scope for things like orienteering, mountain biking, etc.
I also wonder whether the degree of supervision and parental transport causes problems. My school friends and I spent most of our free time fishing, which isn't particularly strenuous, but we got their on our bikes with our kit on our backs, not in mummy's 4x4.
Corsair7 said:
I did play rugby when in the Forces, but not as a method of getting fit. You get fit to play rugby, not the other way around. PE teachers have a couple of sessions a week with these kids, and playing a structured sport is good for many development reasons, but as a direct method of improving fitness? No, not at that level.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
How many made up "facts" do you want to place in one post? Usually "intellectually challenged" Fran Cotton owner of Cotton Traders is he intellectually challenged, what about the barrister Brian Moore, the journalist Stephen Jones (he's still a t
t though)? The fact you have descended into a rather farcical range of made up facts and slurs on it's participants shows you as failing in your arguement. How many rugby pitches in my town? well there are 2 main clubs and 4 junior clubs, 3 pitches at each club, I'll let you do the maths. My home town has one Premiership side, and in the local area over 20 clubs http://clubs.rfu.com/Clubs/portals/NorthumberlandR... This is Newcastle a city renowned for football not rugby. In addition to this England has over +1200 clubs http://www.cantrugby.co.uk/clubs.htm
The rest of the points you raise about people playing sports to keep fit are as applicable to rugby. Turn up on a saturday to any clubs third or fourth team, in some cases their twos, and try and point out one player who has undertaken any form of fitness training in the last 10+ years. This doesn't include exercising the arm at the bar post game.
Kids will whinge bleat and moan about anything they don't want to undertake, cross country runs in the depth of winter weren't a personal favourite, they were usually dominated by the racing snakes, however in later life I didn't develop an irrational hatred of cross country. Conversely I actually did more running.
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 13:06
Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
I did play rugby when in the Forces, but not as a method of getting fit. You get fit to play rugby, not the other way around. PE teachers have a couple of sessions a week with these kids, and playing a structured sport is good for many development reasons, but as a direct method of improving fitness? No, not at that level.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
How many made up "facts" do you want to place in one post? Usually "intellectually challenged" Fran Cotton owner of Cotton Traders is he intellectually challenged, what about the barrister Brian Moore, the journalist Stephen Jones (he's still a t
t though)? The fact you have descended into a rather farcical range of made up facts and slurs on it's participants shows you as failing in your arguement. How many rugby pitches in my town? well there are 2 main clubs and 4 junior clubs, 3 pitches at each club, I'll let you do the maths. My home town has one Premiership side, and in the local area over 20 clubs http://clubs.rfu.com/Clubs/portals/NorthumberlandR... This is Newcastle a city renowned for football not rugby. In addition to this England has over +1200 clubs http://www.cantrugby.co.uk/clubs.htm
The rest of the points you raise about people playing sports to keep fit are as applicable to rugby. Turn up on a saturday to any clubs third or fourth team, in some cases their twos, and try and point out one player who has undertaken any form of fitness training in the last 10+ years. This doesn't include exercising the arm at the bar post game.
Kids will whinge bleat and moan about anything they don't want to undertake, cross country runs in the depth of winter weren't a personal favourite, they were usually dominated by the racing snakes, however in later life I didn't develop an irrational hatred of cross country. Conversely I actually did more running.
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 13:06
Oh, and the 'insults' to Rugby players above: Please re-read my post. I said it in respect to the school class taking the sport. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't recognise a general difference in aptitude for various subjects accross a school population? Yes, in a private prep school the 'rugger chaps' may well have a higher apptitude for more high brow subjects, but I dont think this is the case accross the general comprehensive school population. Obviosuly there will be exceptions to this generalisation. However, I bet you the difference between the educational achievements between the Welsh and English rugby Union professionals would be quite substantial in favour of the English squad. (I'm welsh btw).
Its a regional sport, played by a minority. Those that play it (without being forced) love it. The majority of adults that played it in school (because they had too) do not choose to participate in it outside school for their choosen method of achieveing or maintaining fitness. The figures back this up, way less than one percent of adults (0.65% to be axact) in the UK choose to participate in Rugby regularly. More than 5% participate in football.
I love Rugby btw.
Edit: Correction in numbers
Edited by Corsair7 on Monday 5th July 14:38
Corsair7 said:
The majority of adults that played it in school (because they had too) do not choose to participate in it outside school for their choosen method of achieveing or maintaining fitness. The figures back this up, way less than half a percent of adults (0.15% to be axact) in the UK choose to participate in Rugby regularly. More than 5% participate in football.
When I was in school I hadn't slipped a disc and it was much easier to organise enough people to play a game than it is these days!TuxRacer said:
Corsair7 said:
The majority of adults that played it in school (because they had too) do not choose to participate in it outside school for their choosen method of achieveing or maintaining fitness. The figures back this up, way less than half a percent of adults (0.15% to be axact) in the UK choose to participate in Rugby regularly. More than 5% participate in football.
When I was in school I hadn't slipped a disc and it was much easier to organise enough people to play a game than it is these days!
Corsair7 said:
Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
I did play rugby when in the Forces, but not as a method of getting fit. You get fit to play rugby, not the other way around. PE teachers have a couple of sessions a week with these kids, and playing a structured sport is good for many development reasons, but as a direct method of improving fitness? No, not at that level.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
How many made up "facts" do you want to place in one post? Usually "intellectually challenged" Fran Cotton owner of Cotton Traders is he intellectually challenged, what about the barrister Brian Moore, the journalist Stephen Jones (he's still a t
t though)? The fact you have descended into a rather farcical range of made up facts and slurs on it's participants shows you as failing in your arguement. How many rugby pitches in my town? well there are 2 main clubs and 4 junior clubs, 3 pitches at each club, I'll let you do the maths. My home town has one Premiership side, and in the local area over 20 clubs http://clubs.rfu.com/Clubs/portals/NorthumberlandR... This is Newcastle a city renowned for football not rugby. In addition to this England has over +1200 clubs http://www.cantrugby.co.uk/clubs.htm
The rest of the points you raise about people playing sports to keep fit are as applicable to rugby. Turn up on a saturday to any clubs third or fourth team, in some cases their twos, and try and point out one player who has undertaken any form of fitness training in the last 10+ years. This doesn't include exercising the arm at the bar post game.
Kids will whinge bleat and moan about anything they don't want to undertake, cross country runs in the depth of winter weren't a personal favourite, they were usually dominated by the racing snakes, however in later life I didn't develop an irrational hatred of cross country. Conversely I actually did more running.
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 13:06
Oh, and the 'insults' to Rugby players above: Please re-read my post. I said it in respect to the school class taking the sport. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't recognise a general difference in aptitude for various subjects accross a school population? Yes, in a private prep school the 'rugger chaps' may well have a higher apptitude for more high brow subjects, but I dont think this is the case accross the general comprehensive school population. Obviosuly there will be exceptions to this generalisation. However, I bet you the difference between the educational achievements between the Welsh and English rugby Union professionals would be quite substantial in favour of the English squad. (I'm welsh btw).
Its a regional sport, played by a minority. Those that play it (without being forced) love it. The majority of adults that played it in school (because they had too) do not choose to participate in it outside school for their choosen method of achieveing or maintaining fitness. The figures back this up, way less than one percent of adults (0.65% to be axact) in the UK choose to participate in Rugby regularly. More than 5% participate in football.
I love Rugby btw.
Edit: Correction in numbers
Edited by Corsair7 on Monday 5th July 14:38
So due to YOUR points then, school children should not be made to played rugby? what are the statistics of basketball players in the UK? should we stop making children play basketball in schools, as it favours the tall amongst the population (lanky freaks of nature always catching the balls i couldn't reach) and the number of people that were forced to play at school and then play it after leaving is negligible.
A gym teacher has a finite amount of time to introduce new sports to pupils, team sports offer the quickest way of involving the entire class. If there are some that are better suited to water polo, cycling or any other number of other minority sports then it isn't really the fault of the teacher. Unless of course you would like the curriculum changed to include every sport on the planet?? this could cut into double chemistry though.
Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
Bosshogg76 said:
Corsair7 said:
I did play rugby when in the Forces, but not as a method of getting fit. You get fit to play rugby, not the other way around. PE teachers have a couple of sessions a week with these kids, and playing a structured sport is good for many development reasons, but as a direct method of improving fitness? No, not at that level.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
Lets get back to reality a bit. PE teacher has two or three hours a week to promote fitness in school kids. The choosen sport of the region for winter happens to be Rugby (lets say its Wales). At least half the kids are unfit and dont know the rules because they are not interested in the sport. Does he spend hours and hours getting them all fit and explaining the rules and saftey aspect to all the kids? Even the speccy little maths nerds? Because before partaking in such a sport, surely everyone needs to have an adequate level of fitness? No, he isn't given the time, is he? Or the resources. So what then ensues is a game where at least some of the participants spend the next hour trying their best to avoid the ball and staying out of harms way. Obviosuly, if Rugby happens to be 'your thing' then its enjoyable and leads to good levels of fitness and team building etc etc.If it ain't your thing its simply nothing more than an hour of torture that you dread.
Rugby is a hobby and a pastime and anjoyable sport for those that want to do it . For the rest of the class, its a horrid sport dominated by the strong and fit and usually 'intellectually challenged'. Its probably the most intense contact sport out there for the paticipants that dont want to actually do it .
How many school kids as a percentage do you think play rugby for fun once they leave school? I'd guess it would be less than 15-20%. You dont see people playing rugby all over the country on a Sunday morning because most people dont regard it as an enjoyable sport to play. How many rugby pitches in your local town? Maybe one or two, but there will be a dozen or more footie pitches. (perhaps Wales and the far North excepted)
Its a sport promoted in school and enjoyed mainly as a spectator sport by adults. Most people that watch it dont play it. Maybe they did once a long time ago in school, but even then they didnt keep it up as adults. A minority of people watch it weekly, a minority of people play it after their scool years. Its vastly enjoyed by those who do love Rugby, but its foisted on the majority of those that have no intrest.
I dont know a single person that plays Rugby for the benifit of their fitness. There are people that play rugby that are very fit, but they get fit in order to play rugby, because its their passion. But they are few and far between. Most of the young adults that regularly do sport for fitness after they leave school play football or do running/cycling/swimming for fitness.
Even in Wales Rugby is very much a 'has been' sport.
How many made up "facts" do you want to place in one post? Usually "intellectually challenged" Fran Cotton owner of Cotton Traders is he intellectually challenged, what about the barrister Brian Moore, the journalist Stephen Jones (he's still a t
t though)? The fact you have descended into a rather farcical range of made up facts and slurs on it's participants shows you as failing in your arguement. How many rugby pitches in my town? well there are 2 main clubs and 4 junior clubs, 3 pitches at each club, I'll let you do the maths. My home town has one Premiership side, and in the local area over 20 clubs http://clubs.rfu.com/Clubs/portals/NorthumberlandR... This is Newcastle a city renowned for football not rugby. In addition to this England has over +1200 clubs http://www.cantrugby.co.uk/clubs.htm
The rest of the points you raise about people playing sports to keep fit are as applicable to rugby. Turn up on a saturday to any clubs third or fourth team, in some cases their twos, and try and point out one player who has undertaken any form of fitness training in the last 10+ years. This doesn't include exercising the arm at the bar post game.
Kids will whinge bleat and moan about anything they don't want to undertake, cross country runs in the depth of winter weren't a personal favourite, they were usually dominated by the racing snakes, however in later life I didn't develop an irrational hatred of cross country. Conversely I actually did more running.
Edited by Bosshogg76 on Monday 5th July 13:06
Oh, and the 'insults' to Rugby players above: Please re-read my post. I said it in respect to the school class taking the sport. Are you really trying to tell me that you don't recognise a general difference in aptitude for various subjects accross a school population? Yes, in a private prep school the 'rugger chaps' may well have a higher apptitude for more high brow subjects, but I dont think this is the case accross the general comprehensive school population. Obviosuly there will be exceptions to this generalisation. However, I bet you the difference between the educational achievements between the Welsh and English rugby Union professionals would be quite substantial in favour of the English squad. (I'm welsh btw).
Its a regional sport, played by a minority. Those that play it (without being forced) love it. The majority of adults that played it in school (because they had too) do not choose to participate in it outside school for their choosen method of achieveing or maintaining fitness. The figures back this up, way less than one percent of adults (0.65% to be axact) in the UK choose to participate in Rugby regularly. More than 5% participate in football.
I love Rugby btw.
Edit: Correction in numbers
Edited by Corsair7 on Monday 5th July 14:38
So due to YOUR points then, school children should not be made to played rugby? what are the statistics of basketball players in the UK? should we stop making children play basketball in schools, as it favours the tall amongst the population (lanky freaks of nature always catching the balls i couldn't reach) and the number of people that were forced to play at school and then play it after leaving is negligible.
A gym teacher has a finite amount of time to introduce new sports to pupils, team sports offer the quickest way of involving the entire class. If there are some that are better suited to water polo, cycling or any other number of other minority sports then it isn't really the fault of the teacher. Unless of course you would like the curriculum changed to include every sport on the planet?? this could cut into double chemistry though.
quote=Me, earlier
Corsair7 said:
Raises an interesting observation for me this thread.
Most schools force kids to play Rugby. Especially in Wales. Most of the kids I went to school with had little interest in Rugby, and didnt want to play this sport. Yet for the glory of the PE teacher, the school, the area and the country, many were forced to play this sport.
So, the question is, why? Its not a particulary good game for promoting fitness, causes many injuries, and most of the participants dont want to do it. So how come schools (especially regionally) are allowed to force kids into doing it? You see most professional rugby players with game related injuries and disfigerments, and most successful careers seem to end in injuries. Look at Gavin Henson, not exactly 'old', yet his list of injuries reads like a road accident victim. He'll probably end up long term disabled from his injuries to some extent. ANd he's represents the 0.00002% that made a career from being forced into playing Rugby as a child.
I went to school in the 70's and 80's in Wales, and you palyed rugby throughout the winter. I'd say less than 20% of the kids would have choosen to do it. ANd it was at times quite brutal. THe school produced several International class players over the decades, and the sport was good to them. Most of the other kids however were just the unwilling tackle fodder. Ask the kids and the majority dont want to play this sport. So what is the justification for playing it?
Why do we 'encourage' kids to partake in a sport that msot of them seem not to want to play (if they did want to play it, more would, by choice, after leaving school - wouldnt they?) on the pretext that its good for getting our kids fit and healthy? Its a great sport, but its also a sport that demands the fittest and strongest participants. Could it be that this very demand actually puts kids off sport in general? Do you see what I'm saying? Most schools force kids to play Rugby. Especially in Wales. Most of the kids I went to school with had little interest in Rugby, and didnt want to play this sport. Yet for the glory of the PE teacher, the school, the area and the country, many were forced to play this sport.
So, the question is, why? Its not a particulary good game for promoting fitness, causes many injuries, and most of the participants dont want to do it. So how come schools (especially regionally) are allowed to force kids into doing it? You see most professional rugby players with game related injuries and disfigerments, and most successful careers seem to end in injuries. Look at Gavin Henson, not exactly 'old', yet his list of injuries reads like a road accident victim. He'll probably end up long term disabled from his injuries to some extent. ANd he's represents the 0.00002% that made a career from being forced into playing Rugby as a child.
I went to school in the 70's and 80's in Wales, and you palyed rugby throughout the winter. I'd say less than 20% of the kids would have choosen to do it. ANd it was at times quite brutal. THe school produced several International class players over the decades, and the sport was good to them. Most of the other kids however were just the unwilling tackle fodder. Ask the kids and the majority dont want to play this sport. So what is the justification for playing it?
I'm glad I enjoyed Rugby as a kid. I wasn't great at it as I was never really encouraged to get adequatly fit and strong enough to be good at it. There were many other kids at the time that avoided Rugby in any way they could, from the old 'forgot my kit' types that didnt participate to the types that did have their kit but ran around the field trying to avoid the action - you could tell this type at the end of the game because their kit was still clean!!! :-)
I'd be very surprised if things have changed a great deal in schools from when I went. I know that PE still only gets a couple of hours a week, and that PE teachers will still concentrate their efforts by and large on those with a real apptitude for a particular sport or event (I'm not involved in school sports but I do have kids of school age). I also know Rugby as a sport in Wales has been in some decline in the past few decades too.
As you said about basketball, most sports have a particular 'demographic' of the type of people that play them. There will allways be exceptions to that demographic of course. Rugby attracts a particular type as does Footie, basketball etc. We never had Footie in our school btw, as it wasn't in the schools or PE teachers interest to teach footie (which is probably overall a better sport for fitness levels?) as apposed to strength levels for Rugby?
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