Call to ban scrums in school rugby, on safety grounds.
Discussion
Corsair7 said:
Why do we 'encourage' kids to partake in a sport that msot of them seem not to want to play (if they did want to play it, more would, by choice, after leaving school - wouldnt they?)
No.Corsair7 said:
We never had Footie in our school btw, as it wasn't in the schools or PE teachers interest to teach footie (which is probably overall a better sport for fitness levels?) as apposed to strength levels for Rugby?
Wash your mouth out! 
In rugby players have to move around the pitch, in football it should be more the ball that moves. Unless you play like the England team I suppose, in which case it's probably spectacular for fitness. I suspect there are few games better than rugby sevens for fitness.
Edited by TuxRacer on Monday 5th July 16:45
Corsair7 said:
... If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
Funny you should say that.A friend's brother was paralysed in the late 80's playing rugby at school. Made a lot of press and much rabble was roused.
I left the state school system shortly afterwards and went to my Prep 3 years behind my classmates. I was fat, unfit and what I knew about school sport consisted of stand in that box and stop that ball going those posts or t
t the red ball as hard as you can. No ideal for a school who had an illustrious Rugby and Cricket past.It was then that I was introduced to Rugby. It took a couple of weeks and by half term I was still a lot rounder than many, but I had found a sport where my weight was an advantage and I wasn't actually too bad at it.
I'll never be a tri-athlete but without Rugby I can safely say my entire school sporting career would have consisted of sitting in the school library having tea and scones with Mrs Kings and i would be even less fit than i am now if i hadn't had my interest in no motorised sport reignited by Rugby.
Corsair7 said:
OK, I haven't played Rugby for 20 years. I guess the teaching hasn't changed a great deal though. Rugby should be played by people who are physically fit to play it, otherwise injuries occur more readily. In school however, the whim of the PE teacher would be that this week we play Rugby. Do the PE teachers now have sufficient time to get the kids fit before starting play? I doubt it. Do the PE teachers have the abiltiy to teach the game properly? I doubt it. No, I'd guess he'd start with 40 or so kids, of which 50% at least have ZERO interest in the game, dont know the rules or the saftey aspects, and throw them into a game. Some will be good, and will be encouraged into the game. In order for the 'some that are good' to move forward in the game, everyone else has to play the game that they have no interest in.
Rugby good for fitness? Umm, no, disagree. Its the otherway around, isnt it? You have to be very fit to play rugby. The fitness comes first, then the game. You dont get fit playing rugby, you get fit to play rugby. You get fit hitting the road running, build strength down the gym. Rugby players dont get fit playing the game, the practice games sharpen the skills and tactics. If theywant to work on the strength and fitness they do other things. If you want to get a bunch of school kids fit AND healthy, would you choose to take them ont he Rugby pitch to achieve this? Or would it be better to get them doing gym classes, areobics and such like? I was in the military 12 years, and the fitness coaches NEVER used a sport like Rugby as a method of getting fit. Indeed, I'd say that theres a distinct risk in playing Rugby if you're not already very fit.
Long term fitness? Yes, as my example, long term, rugby players invariably end up with long term injuries. Back and shoulder injuries are common place. If you are front row, you can expect facial deformaties, teeth missing, cauliflower ears. If you're one of the 'poofters' in the backs, you're career will likly be ended by ligament damage to the knees or ankles caused by tackles.
I'm not anti rugby, I enjoyed playing it myself, and enjoy it over football as a spectator sport. But it isn't an ideal sport for geting people fit. If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
I havent read the rest of the thread so I dont know if somebody else called you up on this one, and if you reached an amicable love in with them, then sorry. Your posts annoyed me enough to dive right in. Rugby good for fitness? Umm, no, disagree. Its the otherway around, isnt it? You have to be very fit to play rugby. The fitness comes first, then the game. You dont get fit playing rugby, you get fit to play rugby. You get fit hitting the road running, build strength down the gym. Rugby players dont get fit playing the game, the practice games sharpen the skills and tactics. If theywant to work on the strength and fitness they do other things. If you want to get a bunch of school kids fit AND healthy, would you choose to take them ont he Rugby pitch to achieve this? Or would it be better to get them doing gym classes, areobics and such like? I was in the military 12 years, and the fitness coaches NEVER used a sport like Rugby as a method of getting fit. Indeed, I'd say that theres a distinct risk in playing Rugby if you're not already very fit.
Long term fitness? Yes, as my example, long term, rugby players invariably end up with long term injuries. Back and shoulder injuries are common place. If you are front row, you can expect facial deformaties, teeth missing, cauliflower ears. If you're one of the 'poofters' in the backs, you're career will likly be ended by ligament damage to the knees or ankles caused by tackles.
I'm not anti rugby, I enjoyed playing it myself, and enjoy it over football as a spectator sport. But it isn't an ideal sport for geting people fit. If you've got fat, unfit school kids and you take them to play rugby as a their weekely two hour PE lesson, then you're quite frankly incompetant at your job.
I have to say comparing playing rugby 20 years ago when A) your average PE teacher was also a geography teacher or something similar and B) Rugby was a completely different game, based on heavy blokes running into each other until one of them fell over, is not relevent.
Now both are very different. PE teachers are highly qualifed, even if their remit is wider then it should be. Rugby is a fast moving game where the props are expected to keep up with the wingers. This applies as much as Schoolboy level as it does internationally.
Your point about low fitness levels leading to injuries is true but can equally be applied to anything. That is up to the coach to break a new team/class in slowly. It sounds like your experiances are of rubbish coaches who were more interested in finding something for you all to do rather then looking after and improving their charges. You mention having 50% of kids who are disinterested. Quite possible. The same applies to any sport that kids are forced to play. But surely its beter they do something rather then nothing.
You say military fitness dosnt use rugby, but not which branch. There are simpler to organise, lower risk of injury, methods of training. That dosnt mean Rugby is not a good way of staying fit. But to suggest that playing one match a week is going to make and keep you fit is foolish. You have to train, and train hard. The match itself is less about the fitness and more about benchmarking.
There is also the squaddie interest factor, which is at best limited in most English regiments, the main focus being on football, at least outside the officers mess(perhaps the reverse is true in Welsh regiments?).
Dont get me wrong I am not suggesting that every kid at every age group should pile into full contact rugby as soon as they can hold a ball. Neither am I saying that anyone lacking in experience or training should be in the front row of a scrum indeed at school, university and beyond if we were down a front row forward we did not have scrums as such, more of a leanto.
But surely we should not remove the heart and purpose (to create loyalty and improve confidence/fitness)of a great inclusive school sport just because somebody could get hurt?
Edit for spulling 'n paragraphs
Edited by WreckedGecko on Monday 5th July 17:48
Corsair7 said:
Why do we 'encourage' kids to partake in a sport that msot of them seem not to want to play (if they did want to play it, more would, by choice, after leaving school - wouldnt they?) on the pretext that its good for getting our kids fit and healthy? Its a great sport, but its also a sport that demands the fittest and strongest participants. Could it be that this very demand actually puts kids off sport in general? Do you see what I'm saying?
I'm glad I enjoyed Rugby as a kid. I wasn't great at it as I was never really encouraged to get adequatly fit and strong enough to be good at it. There were many other kids at the time that avoided Rugby in any way they could, from the old 'forgot my kit' types that didnt participate to the types that did have their kit but ran around the field trying to avoid the action - you could tell this type at the end of the game because their kit was still clean!!! :-)
I'd be very surprised if things have changed a great deal in schools from when I went. I know that PE still only gets a couple of hours a week, and that PE teachers will still concentrate their efforts by and large on those with a real apptitude for a particular sport or event (I'm not involved in school sports but I do have kids of school age). I also know Rugby as a sport in Wales has been in some decline in the past few decades too.
As you said about basketball, most sports have a particular 'demographic' of the type of people that play them. There will allways be exceptions to that demographic of course. Rugby attracts a particular type as does Footie, basketball etc. We never had Footie in our school btw, as it wasn't in the schools or PE teachers interest to teach footie (which is probably overall a better sport for fitness levels?) as apposed to strength levels for Rugby?
I think that the reason they try and get children involved in sport that some don't like, is that trying to find a sport that the entire class would enjoy is nigh on impossible. I can see that "forcing" a child to partake in a sport can have the opposite effect to the one wanted. However to simply do nothing and allow children 2 free periods per week isn't the answer either. I'm glad I enjoyed Rugby as a kid. I wasn't great at it as I was never really encouraged to get adequatly fit and strong enough to be good at it. There were many other kids at the time that avoided Rugby in any way they could, from the old 'forgot my kit' types that didnt participate to the types that did have their kit but ran around the field trying to avoid the action - you could tell this type at the end of the game because their kit was still clean!!! :-)
I'd be very surprised if things have changed a great deal in schools from when I went. I know that PE still only gets a couple of hours a week, and that PE teachers will still concentrate their efforts by and large on those with a real apptitude for a particular sport or event (I'm not involved in school sports but I do have kids of school age). I also know Rugby as a sport in Wales has been in some decline in the past few decades too.
As you said about basketball, most sports have a particular 'demographic' of the type of people that play them. There will allways be exceptions to that demographic of course. Rugby attracts a particular type as does Footie, basketball etc. We never had Footie in our school btw, as it wasn't in the schools or PE teachers interest to teach footie (which is probably overall a better sport for fitness levels?) as apposed to strength levels for Rugby?
There can't can't possibly be the facilities to encourage every possible sport, so the alternative is to move away from PE classes being about sport and turn them into fitness sessions instead. So don't bother introducing sport, but take them to the gym for interval training, Olympic lifts and cardio sessions, however this also would cause much moaning and griping about how little Jonny wasn't happy at doing this.
However i do think that the days of PE teachers being like this guy are long over:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP66T8ktiTA
I played rugby at school and carried on throughout my military career; I never had trouble finding a game when I was serving - in fact I'm pretty sure every RAF station I served on had a rugby club. I credit rugby with getting me fit enough to join up in the first place as I always despised playing football and basketball.
I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc. I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc. I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
May I just say that the last couple of post accurately define the difference between Rugby and Football....
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
Slaav said:
May I just say that the last couple of post accurately define the difference between Rugby and Football....
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
It's alright, I was being factually correct: he does actually have a tractor. On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
Dixie68 said:
I played rugby at school and carried on throughout my military career; I never had trouble finding a game when I was serving - in fact I'm pretty sure every RAF station I served on had a rugby club. I credit rugby with getting me fit enough to join up in the first place as I always despised playing football and basketball.
I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc . I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
I completely agree with the pro-rugby crowd here. It's a marvellous game and I enjoyed playing it at school and beyond, however you appear to have chosen one rugby player from the 70s and compared him to a footballer who is stereotyped as not being very intelligent. I love rugby, but in general it's played by people who aren't that bright (certainly in Wales anyway) I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc . I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
I can certainly think of more white collar professionals in rugby than football. There may be excuses like union only relatively recently turning professional and kids going straight into football before they've left school, but to me the idea that rugby players are the dim ones in general is pretty laughable.
TuxRacer said:
I can certainly think of more white collar professionals in rugby than football. There may be excuses like union only relatively recently turning professional and kids going straight into football before they've left school, but to me the idea that rugby players are the dim ones in general is pretty laughable.
Have you ever been to Wales? (Or Cornwall? )Diderot said:
Slaav said:
May I just say that the last couple of post accurately define the difference between Rugby and Football....
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
It's alright, I was being factually correct: he does actually have a tractor. On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
Diderot said:
Slaav said:
May I just say that the last couple of post accurately define the difference between Rugby and Football....
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
It's alright, I was being factually correct: he does actually have a tractor. On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
RedLeicester said:
Diderot said:
Slaav said:
May I just say that the last couple of post accurately define the difference between Rugby and Football....
On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
It's alright, I was being factually correct: he does actually have a tractor. On this thread, the insults have reached such a crescendo that someone has been called a 'tractor boy'!
And I think that was in response to being called a nancy boy back?
And that is after 4 pages of debate and argument?
Now imagine if this was all about football and what do you think would possibly happen
Dick_Phallus said:
Dixie68 said:
I played rugby at school and carried on throughout my military career; I never had trouble finding a game when I was serving - in fact I'm pretty sure every RAF station I served on had a rugby club. I credit rugby with getting me fit enough to join up in the first place as I always despised playing football and basketball.
I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc . I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
I completely agree with the pro-rugby crowd here. It's a marvellous game and I enjoyed playing it at school and beyond, however you appear to have chosen one rugby player from the 70s and compared him to a footballer who is stereotyped as not being very intelligent. I love rugby, but in general it's played by people who aren't that bright (certainly in Wales anyway) I really can't see the "play rugby you must be thick" side of this argument as, if anything, I think that's football you're talking about - compare and contrast: Wayne Rooney & (Dr) JPR Williams etc etc . I'd be hard pushed to name ANY footballist in fact that could count over ten without removing his shoes, whereas plenty of rugby players are very intelligent people.
Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is one of the many things wrong with the previous government, all we seem to teach them nowadays is they should get their own way all the time, if you get hurt it's someone's fault, where there's blame there's a claim etc.
Underwood - RAF fast jet /airline pilot.
With schools rugby you have two cases, compulsory as part of the sports lesson and out of hours playing for the school team.
In the former case there must be a strong argument for this just been tag rugby as put some one in the front row that has no great desire to be there is dangerous. While the after schools rugby will be played by boys that want to play there mind set will be different and they will want to learn be coached in the correct technique.
I still play the great game have done since I was 8 and now 40 like most adult players I have to work on my fitness to be able to play the game successfully. Where as the kids I coach on a Sunday morning fitness is never an issue as most will run all day as they should at that age.
Rugby is an inclusive sport there is a place for the fat, the small and tall. It teaches kids about team work the elegant skillful backs need the fat thickos up to front win the ball. This teaches kids everybody has a use and you have to work together to win.
In the former case there must be a strong argument for this just been tag rugby as put some one in the front row that has no great desire to be there is dangerous. While the after schools rugby will be played by boys that want to play there mind set will be different and they will want to learn be coached in the correct technique.
I still play the great game have done since I was 8 and now 40 like most adult players I have to work on my fitness to be able to play the game successfully. Where as the kids I coach on a Sunday morning fitness is never an issue as most will run all day as they should at that age.
Rugby is an inclusive sport there is a place for the fat, the small and tall. It teaches kids about team work the elegant skillful backs need the fat thickos up to front win the ball. This teaches kids everybody has a use and you have to work together to win.
A quick selection of the current England Rugby squad:
Lewis Moody:
Studied Business Administration at De Montfort University.
Tom Palmer:
Studied Physics at Leeds University.
Simon Shaw:
Studied at the University of the West of England.
James Haskell:
educated at Papplewick School, Ascot, and Wellington College, Berkshire.
Joe Worsley:
educated at Hitchin Boys' School and Brunel University.
I can't be bothered to look up the educational history of Rooney, Fat Frank and Steve "Just Welly It" Gerrard, but I suspect it mainly involves woodwork classes and drama.
Lewis Moody:
Studied Business Administration at De Montfort University.
Tom Palmer:
Studied Physics at Leeds University.
Simon Shaw:
Studied at the University of the West of England.
James Haskell:
educated at Papplewick School, Ascot, and Wellington College, Berkshire.
Joe Worsley:
educated at Hitchin Boys' School and Brunel University.
I can't be bothered to look up the educational history of Rooney, Fat Frank and Steve "Just Welly It" Gerrard, but I suspect it mainly involves woodwork classes and drama.
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