Death penalty recipients?

[tank slapper]

andymadmak said:

Hmm, thats convenient for you - societal changes that could explain etc. Of course, you then don't have to actually say which change that was, or what caused it... Society has always changed. In fact, over the 100 years prior to the abolition of the death penalty, when there were truly huge societal changes, the emergence of organised labour, two world wars, a great depression and so much more, the murder rate per million head of population remained steady (at about 7)
In the 40 years following abolition the rate rose inexorably to 14 per million head of population. But I would agree with you that a societal change caused that rise, in fact I'll go so far as to identify it - that change was the abolition of the death penalty for murder and the general softening of our police and criminal justice system which sent a signal to the crims that no matter what they did it would not cost them their own life.

You are making a statement, that assumes that the removal of the death penalty is directly responsible for any increase in the number of murders committed. I was pointing out, that you can't make that assumption, but have to consider what else has changed in that time. It is a logical fallacy - post hoc ergo propter hoc.

That is not to say that it definitely is not the case, but timing alone is not sufficient to prove a causal relationship.

Edit - It would be interesting to compare the homicide rates prior to 1900 (which I can't find), and also crime rates for other previously capital crimes, to see if there is a similar correlation.

Edited by tank slapper on Friday 6th August 15:21

[HundredthIdiot]

matchmaker said:

Like this?
http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA...

"The table is fitted with restraints to hold down the prisoner sentenced to a "birching"...The selection of the appropriate rod depended on the age and size of the offender, with the smallest reserved for 8- to 10-year olds"

8 year olds!

[matchmaker]

HundredthIdiot said:

matchmaker said:

Like this?
http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA...

"The table is fitted with restraints to hold down the prisoner sentenced to a "birching"...The selection of the appropriate rod depended on the age and size of the offender, with the smallest reserved for 8- to 10-year olds"

8 year olds!

Yes, until 1948! Although I never saw it myself, I was told by colleagues that the old Glasgow Sheriff Court building in Ingram Street still had its "whipping room" (complete with birches) for many years after that.

I have however seem a "judicial" birch rod at first hand. I would NOT fancy being on the wrong end of one

[otolith]

stitched said:

otolith said:

stitched said:

Guilty beyond reasonable doubt is not sufficient IMHO, full release of ALL evidence to a seperate jury after conviction who reccomend yea or nay to a panel of 3 judges who may then apply the sentence of death if they are convinced there is no doubt at all of guilt.
[will not debate moral issue on]

So automatic judicial review / appeal which either gets them death or aquittal. Not going to change the outcome in miscarriages of justice where the court made the right decision on the basis of the evidence before it, but the evidence was wrong.

OK I'll bite.
I think there are cases where there is no doubt at all, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe and several others?

But there was no doubt in the cases which turned out to be miscarriages of justice - where do you draw a line between Fred West and those cases? No reasonable doubt is effectively the same as no doubt - so basically, anyone you think shouldn't be executed should be freed.

[OnTheOverrun]

Justayellowbadge said:

The death penalty for littering.

I love PH.

Pipe down at the back there you bolshy trot!

[spaximus]

My father worked with a miner who had been birched as a young man. He was guilty and took the punishment and swore he would never be in trouble again, he wasn't as the punishment showed him the errors of his ways.

It was stopped allegedly as there were too many working class got birched when "rich kids" were let off as they were just high spirited.

Interesting to note that on another thread the yob who kicked his puppy for 20 mins would have been birched in the past a suitable punishment?

[Deva Link]

matchmaker said:

HundredthIdiot said:

matchmaker said:

Like this?
http://www.theglasgowstory.com/image.php?inum=TGSA...

"The table is fitted with restraints to hold down the prisoner sentenced to a "birching"...The selection of the appropriate rod depended on the age and size of the offender, with the smallest reserved for 8- to 10-year olds"

8 year olds!

Yes, until 1948! Although I never saw it myself, I was told by colleagues that the old Glasgow Sheriff Court building in Ingram Street still had its "whipping room" (complete with birches) for many years after that.

I have however seem a "judicial" birch rod at first hand. I would NOT fancy being on the wrong end of one

I think they still did it in the Isle Of Man until the early 70's.

[Dave Angel]

Deva Link said:

I think they still did it in the Isle Of Man until the early 70's.

I once discussed this with a guy who had 6 strokes of the birch in the IOM for assault when drunk. He was a big fella who could look after himself, he told me that it was a bloody big Sergeant who did the birching and the miscreant admitted that he cried like a baby afterwards, the pain was unbearable.

A good case for re-introduction I think.

[thinfourth2]

There would be no need nor call for the death penalty in this country if life in prison meant life and not a few years

And given the choice between being dead or being locked up with hundreds of chavs with the only entertainment being sky TV i would happily choose dead please.

[spaximus]

thinfourth2 said:

There would be no need nor call for the death penalty in this country if life in prison meant life and not a few years

And given the choice between being dead or being locked up with hundreds of chavs with the only entertainment being sky TV i would happily choose dead please.

I wouldn't give them any TV. Anyone who who was inside would be worked or educated so they could gain employment outside.

Life would mean die in prison so don't waste any time doing any education just work them

[nobodyknows]

if the death penalty works why do they have some of the highest murder rates in the USA? And a question for those of you in favour - would YOU be the one to pull the handle or would you expect somebody else to do that? Just a thought, not for or against...

[stitched]

IF, and it's a bloody big if for a reason, I were convinced that the person were guilty of the crimes I believed warranted death then yes I would be willing to be the instrument of death.
There are some criminals, admittedly very few, who IMHO deserve to die but I don't believe any government could be trusted to administer such punishment.
I am therefore in the camp of not re-introducing the death penalty.
However the thread was to enquire opinion.
In the hypothetical scenario including the death penalty as an option what crimes should merit death in your opinion?

[otolith]

Sticking strictly to who deserves it rather than who we should do it to - premeditated murder of someone who has done you no harm (including cases where the murder was not planned but was part of a premeditated crime) and repeat offenders / multiple murderers.

[stitched]

otolith said:

Sticking strictly to who deserves it rather than who we should do it to - premeditated murder of someone who has done you no harm (including cases where the murder was not planned but was part of a premeditated crime) and repeat offenders / multiple murderers.

Ta

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