"England's Green and Prejudiced Land" - S. Times Mag, p16
Discussion
CaptainSlow said:
After reading the article it would appear this guy has a seriously large chip on his shoulder. It's as though he is actively looking for ways to be and wants to be offended.
While reading the article (and I only got halfway through before becoming bored with it), I couldn't get out of my head the image of David James Smith as Dafydd. "We're the only mixed-race family in the village, and you're a racist".JagLover said:
heebeegeetee said:
So how close did Islam come to conquering Britain?
The Arabs/moors reached central france in 732 and the Turks reached Vienna in 1529. carmonk said:
heebeegeetee said:
rudecherub said:
Why are you trying to make crusade out to be good or bad, it's just what it is a word used to describe a campaign of action in general, and in particular to describe the historic actions of Medieval Europe.
A Crusade can be bad, a Crusade can be good, depending on your attitude, if you're opposed to female emancipation then the suffragettes crusade for the vote would have been bad in your eyes...
I absolutely agree, but that doesn't mean the word isn't a sensitive issue in many parts of the world, and that the word isn't used thoughtlessly.A Crusade can be bad, a Crusade can be good, depending on your attitude, if you're opposed to female emancipation then the suffragettes crusade for the vote would have been bad in your eyes...
heebeegeetee said:
So how close did Islam come to conquering Britain? I can't recall ever seeing images of Islamic military aeroplanes flying over Britain, or Islamic warships off the coast of Britain at any time in our history.
So how big was the threat to us, or indeed western Europe?
All my life i've been told that islam represents a threat to us, but so far it has only seemed to amount to a few bombs on buses - it hardly amounts to B52s pounding the s
t out of us, does it?
We don't like the use of the word jihadi and i think most western people liken the use of the word to a threat. I'm sure people from eastern lands liken the word 'crusade' in a similar light. Indeed they use the word 'crusaders' against us to this day.
I just think it might help the situation if we respect each others sensitivities. It might also help if one day we stop gallivanting in foreign lands under one pretext or another.
The Crusades as we know it were part of a political struggle between the two remenant halves of the Roman Empire. So how big was the threat to us, or indeed western Europe?
All my life i've been told that islam represents a threat to us, but so far it has only seemed to amount to a few bombs on buses - it hardly amounts to B52s pounding the s
t out of us, does it?We don't like the use of the word jihadi and i think most western people liken the use of the word to a threat. I'm sure people from eastern lands liken the word 'crusade' in a similar light. Indeed they use the word 'crusaders' against us to this day.
I just think it might help the situation if we respect each others sensitivities. It might also help if one day we stop gallivanting in foreign lands under one pretext or another.
By this time the Empire had split into East and West. Having moved from Rome to Constantinople several hundred years earlier the politicisation of Christianity by Constantine, the morphing of the religion into it's modern political tool resulted in Papal power growing and Rome being re-born as a rival to Constantinople and the Byzantines in the East.
The final Crusade indeed, never made it to the Holy Lands and resulted in the ransacking of Constantinople, the gateway to Europe and was the terminal blow to the already weakening Byzantine Empire, which was finally killed off by the Turks/Ottomans a couple of hundred years later.
Somone mentioned Britons being part of the Crusades. This is a Hollywood misconception. Very few Britons took part. Those who did were generally the younger sons (non inheritors) of land owners, where the father was using that son to curry favour with the Pope.
The vast majority of 'squaddies' were French peasantry (not that France per se existed at that time) and residents of the Holy Roman Empire (northern Italy, Germany, Austria) of which Britain was very much the unwanted b
d neighbour of. It is also very important to reckognise the Venetian and Genoan trading states as well as they held all the ports along North Africa and up the Med coast to Croatia. For hundreds of years the Papacy was a position held by relatives of the ruling families of these great trading states and with Turks trying to seize Eastern ports and Moors the North African then it is almost without doubt that the Pope was used to create the Crusade in order to free these ports and protect Venetian trading rights as well as seize additional trading ports held by the Byzantines.
Finally, whether the word crusade can be deemed offensive depends on whether it is spelt with a capital C or not.
heebeegeetee said:
No, that's fine, it rather backs up what I'm saying. I mean, over a thousand years after the Moors reached central France a Scottish army reached central England, but i still don't think there was ever a real threat to national security.
It is highly likely that Britain would come to the aid of any EU member that was attacked so threats to national security are rather wider than you are allowing for.JagLover said:
heebeegeetee said:
No, that's fine, it rather backs up what I'm saying. I mean, over a thousand years after the Moors reached central France a Scottish army reached central England, but i still don't think there was ever a real threat to national security.
It is highly likely that Britain would come to the aid of any EU member that was attacked so threats to national security are rather wider than you are allowing for.All they could manage was the funding of the Scotish to move south.
There is a legitimate arguement that Britain was saved by the European encoachment of Muslims.
And because of that both those parties surrendered complete control of the Med to Britain 500 years later when the Spanish empire declined.
heebeegeetee said:
Asterix said:
heebeegeetee said:
Asterix said:
Jasandjules said:
heebeegeetee said:
That's not the issue; the fact that belguim or wherever is worse does not make any difference to the guy's (or that of his family) daily life, does it?
OF course it is. If we are to be pilloried then it must be taken into account that if the author were to live elsewhere then they would be in a far worse position.This country could imgprove BUT in my experience of many other nations, England is one of the least prejudiced places around.
The guy is talking about his home town and is family. What's happening in Burkina Faso or wherever has absolutely nothing to do with the issue.
How many people would really find a reference to something done thousands of years ago by people who have nothing to do with white British around today to people who also have nothing directly to do with anyone else around today genuinely offensive?
Maybe I should spit forth venom when I hear about 'Norman' churches or rile against references to the Romans, given what 'they' did to 'us'. Ridiculous.
I thought the article was a joke. So does everyone else it seems.
How someone can honestly go through life always drawing such kneejerk dismal conclusions, assuming everything must be race based and have such a low opinion of everyone else is beyond me. Surprised he hasnt topped himself yet.
How someone can honestly go through life always drawing such kneejerk dismal conclusions, assuming everything must be race based and have such a low opinion of everyone else is beyond me. Surprised he hasnt topped himself yet.
carmonk said:
heebeegeetee said:
rudecherub said:
Why are you trying to make crusade out to be good or bad, it's just what it is a word used to describe a campaign of action in general, and in particular to describe the historic actions of Medieval Europe.
A Crusade can be bad, a Crusade can be good, depending on your attitude, if you're opposed to female emancipation then the suffragettes crusade for the vote would have been bad in your eyes...
I absolutely agree, but that doesn't mean the word isn't a sensitive issue in many parts of the world, and that the word isn't used thoughtlessly.A Crusade can be bad, a Crusade can be good, depending on your attitude, if you're opposed to female emancipation then the suffragettes crusade for the vote would have been bad in your eyes...
Oh, sorry - that's banned too by DFE and local councils for fear of offending people who suffer from . . . brainstorms.
heebeegeetee said:
That's all well and good but moves us a long way away from the tpoic - the use of the word crusade.
So were all crusades a force for good against evil? My understanding of the catholic church is not a positive one - i don't see the catholic church as a representation of 'good' in any way.
I can't remember the dates now and i can't be bothered to look, but at one point in the middle ages one of the popes attempted to instigate a crusade against Britain, which garnered little support. Had it happened though, would that crusade have been a righteous one as well, or would that particular individual crusade have been wrong?
But in the context of political correctness, word sensitivity, taking of offense etc. that's the point isn't it? These things happened many, many years ago and were done by and to people who have no tangible link to us today. So were all crusades a force for good against evil? My understanding of the catholic church is not a positive one - i don't see the catholic church as a representation of 'good' in any way.
I can't remember the dates now and i can't be bothered to look, but at one point in the middle ages one of the popes attempted to instigate a crusade against Britain, which garnered little support. Had it happened though, would that crusade have been a righteous one as well, or would that particular individual crusade have been wrong?
It shouldn't matter whether they were righteous - or sold as such - or good or bad as people from all sorts of places, backgrounds and religions have done awful things to others throughout history and some of the words used had or have come to have alternative uses/meaning. Should all words relating to evil doing be prohibited? If we are going to get offended by any word that relates to bad done by one group to another how far back should we go - it gets ridiculous.
The context here is a deliberately taken/provoked (by 'leaders') offense against a word based on a very old historical context that should be ancient history - done and dusted by now - for modern religious & political purposes, a badge word. It's a 'made up' twisted form of unnecessary offense for one group to use for its own ends.
Anyone who gets genuinely upset by a word relating to events millennia ago needs a reality check.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
He'll get ignored, same as every other prat who's tried to stir things up, which tends to annoy them even more. He's written about Lewes before, having moved in 2005.The Times January 2008 said:
David James Smith, 51, writer, Petal Felix, 47, executive coach, and their four children
When did you move? Summer 2005
Where from? A four-bedroom terraced house in Fulham, west London, with a garden the size of a tea bag
What did you buy and how much was it? We rented for a year, to be sure about the move. Then we bought a beautiful 1930s cottage-style three-bedroom house, with an oak-panelled hall and half an acre of garden, for £535,000. It needed 'and still needs' a lot of work
Why Lewes? We wanted to make a change in our lives, and came here to visit old friends who had moved from Shepherd's Bush. The view from their garden took our breath away
What do you like most? The South Downs, for walking, cycling and running; the house and garden, for being sociable; and many lovable new friends
Any drawbacks? It's very white here, a bit twee and dinky, and a little insular. But when it gets too much, there is always the fast train back to London
He was ignored then, he'll be ignored again.When did you move? Summer 2005
Where from? A four-bedroom terraced house in Fulham, west London, with a garden the size of a tea bag
What did you buy and how much was it? We rented for a year, to be sure about the move. Then we bought a beautiful 1930s cottage-style three-bedroom house, with an oak-panelled hall and half an acre of garden, for £535,000. It needed 'and still needs' a lot of work
Why Lewes? We wanted to make a change in our lives, and came here to visit old friends who had moved from Shepherd's Bush. The view from their garden took our breath away
What do you like most? The South Downs, for walking, cycling and running; the house and garden, for being sociable; and many lovable new friends
Any drawbacks? It's very white here, a bit twee and dinky, and a little insular. But when it gets too much, there is always the fast train back to London
The Times January 2008 said:
Any drawbacks? It's very white here, a bit twee and dinky, and a little insular. But when it gets too much, there is always the fast train back to London
What a complete idiot. I'd love to see his reaction if I were to move to Brixton and comment that it being very black was a drawback. It's obvious that this guy is hung up on race more than the people he is critising.BiggusLaddus said:
Who is bothered by the word jihad?
As a word it is nothing to be concerned about. If it was suggested that the UK be the subject of a jihad then I would find that highly objectionable.
I think plenty of people are. Some time ago someone obtained a car reg no that spelled out the word 'jihad' and it made national news and indeed there was a thread about it here on PH. People seemed very troubled by it.As a word it is nothing to be concerned about. If it was suggested that the UK be the subject of a jihad then I would find that highly objectionable.
heebeegeetee said:
I think plenty of people are. Some time ago someone obtained a car reg no that spelled out the word 'jihad' and it made national news and indeed there was a thread about it here on PH. People seemed very troubled by it.
I'm not sure if it made the national news, but yes i remember the car parked around the corner from my parents .. near Coombeside, so one assumes the owner lived somewhere nearby (but not Coombe obviously as it was a new Mercedes). But yes, i thought the chap had big balls. Actually, HB this is a terrible example because i saw someone with CRU 54DE it wouldn't mean jack, whereas when i saw J1HAD i just knew someone was going to key that muvver. Like with many things in life it comes down to context.Edited by fido on Tuesday 10th August 14:56
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