Royal Navy cut to smallest size ever - 25 ships !

[jimbobsimmonds]

Ayahuasca said:

How about a private company builds and fits out a fleet of warships at its own expense, and leases them to the Govt?

Kind of PFI-RN.

i think that is the case with the RNs 3 small patrol boats...

a company would need a contract for the vessels otherwise too much risk involved... how about they build for a set price, and any overruns are paid for by the company (ie BAE)... i think we would see contract quotes going up but i think it would be more realistic...

[ninja-lewis]

jimbobsimmonds said:

Ayahuasca said:

How about a private company builds and fits out a fleet of warships at its own expense, and leases them to the Govt?

Kind of PFI-RN.

i think that is the case with the RNs 3 small patrol boats...

a company would need a contract for the vessels otherwise too much risk involved... how about they build for a set price, and any overruns are paid for by the company (ie BAE)... i think we would see contract quotes going up but i think it would be more realistic...

It is - the 3 River class patrol boats and HMS Clyde are chartered from VT.

On the other hand, the plan to do the same with the Future Strategic Tanker Aicraft PFI deal is pretty much a disaster.

As for contracts - it'd probably help most if the MOD didn't keep changing them every five minutes. What are BAE supposed to do when they sign a contract that provides the desired return over a class of 12 ships but then the Government decides they only want 6?

[Dunk76]

jimbobsimmonds said:

tonyvid said:

It was interesting watching the news last night - the new Queen Lizzy at 90,000T and approx £350M, essentially a one off and HMS Duncan at 7,500T and £1Bn as a 6 off.

I know the T45s have all that super radar, ops room, sonar and stuff but the QE3 is hardly lacking in fittings and does have 82,000T more materials on board

developing (from design, test, qualification and final production)a state of the art weapons system costs more than a state of the art bedding/clothes storage solution; whether it weighs 30,000 ton more or not...

Scope creep is probably more of the reason behind cost.

Most MoD procurement seems to run along the lines of 'right, we need a newer bigger Destroyer with this much firepower and so much range.' Then the civil service gets involved and within several years it's become a politically correct non-denominational flying Destroyer/Frigate with deathrays and monkeys with flamethrowers and pop-up headlights and automatic everything which thinks of the Children. And costs £4.93.

Eventually, around two decades later, the whole project arrives back at the starting brief. By which time several hundred million has been spunked, nobody can remember what it was we needed in the first place, the old stuff the new boat was designed to replace has cost several hundred unbudgeted million to keep in the water, and the entire design is now obsolete.

Then the order is placed on the obsolete design, and everyone promptly embarks on deciding how to squeeze all the new gear into a box designed twenty years ago.

Then the Government halves the order.

See FV432 replacement for a slighty smaller, cheaper example of the above.

Cunard, meanwhile, probably ring up the Italians and say 'we'd like a bloody great new liner please, sleeps 2000. Can't cost more than £300m. Give us a call when you've drawn up some designs'

Edited by Dunk76 on Tuesday 12th October 18:44

[jimbobsimmonds]

ninja-lewis said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

Ayahuasca said:

How about a private company builds and fits out a fleet of warships at its own expense, and leases them to the Govt?

Kind of PFI-RN.

i think that is the case with the RNs 3 small patrol boats...

a company would need a contract for the vessels otherwise too much risk involved... how about they build for a set price, and any overruns are paid for by the company (ie BAE)... i think we would see contract quotes going up but i think it would be more realistic...

It is - the 3 River class patrol boats and HMS Clyde are chartered from VT.

On the other hand, the plan to do the same with the Future Strategic Tanker Aicraft PFI deal is pretty much a disaster.

As for contracts - it'd probably help most if the MOD didn't keep changing them every five minutes. What are BAE supposed to do when they sign a contract that provides the desired return over a class of 12 ships but then the Government decides they only want 6?

oh agreed entirely... as i may or may not be an employee of said company (i think i got away with it) i can vouch that it takes a lot of flak unduly and would like to see BAE actually turn the screw on the MoD and freeze requirements from the preliminary design phase and since they will be doing a set number of units for a set price any shirking from the MoD will incite penalties so large that they will not dream of f**cking about... that way both sides will not dare mess about, and the process will run much smoother...

my ideal world...

MoD: We need some new boats...
BAE: What kind and how much you got?
MoD: Well, we 12 want big, grey ones with iPod connection and xenon lamps to look cool when pulling into harbour. oh, and we have about £2 bil to spend and about 5 years...
BAE: Right, here's a picture, we can give you 12 boats with xenons in 5 years time but it's gonna cost £2.4bil...
MoD: How about 10 for £2bil?
BAE: Deal!

Now, if they end up costing £3 bil, BAE loses out... And if the MoD decide they want foglamps too; well, that is going to have to wait til its 10k service...

Now, see how often the MoD changes its mind and see if BAE go overbudget...

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Tuesday 12th October 20:37

Edited by jimbobsimmonds on Tuesday 12th October 20:38

[tank slapper]

badgers_back said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Frankeh said:

Are you guys implying that a cannon ball would even dent a modern destroyer?

Modern warship hulls aren't armoured. They are designed to spot threats and destroy them before they get a chance to attack. Although a stealth ship, like a wooden ship of the line () would decimate a tin foil tube quite easily if it got a chance to fire at optium range.

They weren't basic cannon firing in a hope & hit manner in Nelson's time either, they had a choice of shot and had the skills to either fire direct at a ships upperworks (in this case the bridge) to destroy command and control, to hit the hull above the water line by direct shot or by skipping the shot over the water like skipping a stone across a pond or even timing the shot to hit below the water line, using the roll of both vessels. I'm not sure if wooden hulled vessels would even register on missile systems so the frigate would have to rely on it's guns, if it had any and they hadn't been taken out in the first broadside.

Victory had 30, 32 pounders

The 32 pounder fired a shot just over 6 inches in diameter and with a full charge of 10lb 11oz could make an extreme range of 2000 yards.

Sooo if it can chuck a 6 inch shot 200 yards and 10000 and less it would so quite a bit of damage.

Remember these ships of the line had oak hulls 2 foot thick which is what 32 pounders were designed to destroy

The other thing to remember is that a modern warship with gas turbine engines can accelerate from a standstill to 30 knots in under 2 minutes, and is pretty manoeuvrable. First rate ships of the line like Victory were not renowned for their sailing ability - they were relatively slow and unwieldy. Unless a fight started with the 2 ships alongside each other, with all guns loaded and run out then the chances are not a single shot would hit. The modern ship could just position herself to the stern of the sailing ship and pump 4.5" HE shells in through the back at the rate of about one every 2.5 seconds. Thick planking or not, I don't think a wooden vessel would stand up to much of that.

[Fabiao]

tank slapper said:

The other thing to remember is that a modern warship with gas turbine engines can accelerate from a standstill to 30 knots in under 2 minutes, and is pretty manoeuvrable. First rate ships of the line like Victory were not renowned for their sailing ability - they were relatively slow and unwieldy. Unless a fight started with the 2 ships alongside each other, with all guns loaded and run out then the chances are not a single shot would hit. The modern ship could just position herself to the stern of the sailing ship and pump 4.5" HE shells in through the back at the rate of about one every 2.5 seconds. Thick planking or not, I don't think a wooden vessel would stand up to much of that.

Can we just send a Type 23, which could blow the Victory out of the water with a Harpoon before it even knew the Type 23 was there?

[FourWheelDrift]

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

[badgers_back]

tank slapper said:

badgers_back said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Frankeh said:

Are you guys implying that a cannon ball would even dent a modern destroyer?

Modern warship hulls aren't armoured. They are designed to spot threats and destroy them before they get a chance to attack. Although a stealth ship, like a wooden ship of the line () would decimate a tin foil tube quite easily if it got a chance to fire at optium range.

They weren't basic cannon firing in a hope & hit manner in Nelson's time either, they had a choice of shot and had the skills to either fire direct at a ships upperworks (in this case the bridge) to destroy command and control, to hit the hull above the water line by direct shot or by skipping the shot over the water like skipping a stone across a pond or even timing the shot to hit below the water line, using the roll of both vessels. I'm not sure if wooden hulled vessels would even register on missile systems so the frigate would have to rely on it's guns, if it had any and they hadn't been taken out in the first broadside.

Victory had 30, 32 pounders

The 32 pounder fired a shot just over 6 inches in diameter and with a full charge of 10lb 11oz could make an extreme range of 2000 yards.

Sooo if it can chuck a 6 inch shot 200 yards and 10000 and less it would so quite a bit of damage.

Remember these ships of the line had oak hulls 2 foot thick which is what 32 pounders were designed to destroy

The other thing to remember is that a modern warship with gas turbine engines can accelerate from a standstill to 30 knots in under 2 minutes, and is pretty manoeuvrable. First rate ships of the line like Victory were not renowned for their sailing ability - they were relatively slow and unwieldy. Unless a fight started with the 2 ships alongside each other, with all guns loaded and run out then the chances are not a single shot would hit. The modern ship could just position herself to the stern of the sailing ship and pump 4.5" HE shells in through the back at the rate of about one every 2.5 seconds. Thick planking or not, I don't think a wooden vessel would stand up to much of that.

Whats the range on gas turbines????

Victory probably has a longer range unless wind runs out...

All depends on how many 4.5 inch shells a 45 carries and is the can be fused correctly. if they start going straight through then the 45 runs out and victory returns with a few hundred kilos of cast iron

[wildcat45]

You are looking at 7-8000 miles range on a modern warship.

However, you'd never use that. Most ships when operating in a battle mormation get a top up every few days.

Back in the days of the Type 21s they had to be topped up to keep them stable. They relied on the fuel as part of the trim of the ship.

A carrier running its aircraft can drink a lot of both dieso and avcat.

[JensenA]

Lets not forget another 'cost' to cutting the size of the Navy. It isn't just about having 'numbers'. If we stop building ships, then we as a Nation lose some really important skills. Building a modern warship requires the best in the business - from the initial design, right through a whole field of expertise - Electronics, Weapons, Engines, Steel production, Avionics, the list is endless. Shipbuilding in this country needs to be saved. However If the Government announced that they were to expand the Navy, but that the ships would be built abroad, then I would be the first to advocate -very strongly - that we build no more ships.
If you study the History of this country, then you will find out that the Navy actually created this nation, without the Navy, Britain would be just a little island in the North Sea.

[jimbobsimmonds]

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

[FourWheelDrift]

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

[tinman0]

FourWheelDrift said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other metal fixtures and fittings it could lock onto though...

[Halb]

tinman0 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other metal fixtures and fittings it could lock onto though...

Captain Jack's compass...oh that was the Black Pearl

[Ayahuasca]

If I had my time again, I would have joined the navy.


No, not for the bumsex.

[luke111s]

FourWheelDrift said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

I am no expert* but if wood could absorb radar waves, wouldn't all modern war ships/aircraft/etc be covered in oak?

* ..in fact I know nothing about any of this, interesting read though!

[badgers_back]

tinman0 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other metal fixtures and fittings it could lock onto though...

would probably see all the rigging fitting have a panic and go elsewhere

[Vipers]

tinman0 said:

FourWheelDrift said:

jimbobsimmonds said:

FourWheelDrift said:

Harpoon's guidance radar probably wouldn't get a lock on 3500 tonnes of oak.

no, but it would have no problem locking onto the cast iron guns and shot...

back on topic...

Those cast iron guns are inside the wooden hull, the gun ports had wooden doors on them, the radar waves would be absorbed by the wood, they can't penetrate it.

I'm sure there are plenty of other metal fixtures and fittings it could lock onto though...

I do recall when I read "Skunk Works", about the guys who built the U2 spy plane, the Blackbird, and the stealth bomber, they made an invisible ship, worked on the same principle of the stealth, problem was although you couldn't see the ship on the radar, depending on which radar you used, you could sort of see a hole in the ocean where it was sitting.

Very good read by the way.

You don't only need radar to pick someone up, I spent some years in the Electronic Warfare division in the military, we were able to pick up the radar pulse aimed at as, identify the vessel/plane, and with 2 fix's, determine its location.

With modern satelite stuff, I would think that evey nation has every other nations ships plotted 24/7.