Ambulance tea break death
Discussion
I view this situation almost like the "If you were in the way of a police / ambliwans / fire engine, and you HAD to speed / go through a red light to get out the way, would you?"
To which my answer is always no, as no common sense applies, and I would have to fight my way in court to get the points removed costing me time and money (self employed).
Yes, the usual hand wringers go on saying "but what if it was your mother / aunt / uncle / a child / a goat you horrible horrible person" - and this is true. But what if it was not. What if I lost my job. What if I then lost my house. I can't trust my life to a selection of "What If's" based on our pathetic legal system, and neither would I expect anyone else to if I was the victim.
I would assume that the paramedic in question has been told by these ridiculous health and safety people that they must not go on a call in their official breaks, so their hands are tied. So it may be a case of, do it and lose their job, or don't do it and get picked on by the media.
Sad state of affairs - but if common sense were applicable any more in either examples, the world may be a slightly less nasty pedantic place. Possibly.
To which my answer is always no, as no common sense applies, and I would have to fight my way in court to get the points removed costing me time and money (self employed).
Yes, the usual hand wringers go on saying "but what if it was your mother / aunt / uncle / a child / a goat you horrible horrible person" - and this is true. But what if it was not. What if I lost my job. What if I then lost my house. I can't trust my life to a selection of "What If's" based on our pathetic legal system, and neither would I expect anyone else to if I was the victim.
I would assume that the paramedic in question has been told by these ridiculous health and safety people that they must not go on a call in their official breaks, so their hands are tied. So it may be a case of, do it and lose their job, or don't do it and get picked on by the media.
Sad state of affairs - but if common sense were applicable any more in either examples, the world may be a slightly less nasty pedantic place. Possibly.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
No rights for paramedics. How dare they insist on being paid for working. I absolutely agree with you. They should work without pay every day. They should work 70 hours and be paid for 30. They should have their money reduced by cutting their hours but then be forced to work the hours cut to save money for free.
I don't much like people attempting to put words in my mouth, but you seem a decent bloke so I'll respond.I have not said they should have no rights. Or work without pay. But working conditions are contractual, and should be changed by renegotiating. Not by drinking your tea at the regulation time while someone dies.
Carrot said:
I would assume that the paramedic in question has been told by these ridiculous health and safety people that they must not go on a call in their official breaks, so their hands are tied. So it may be a case of, do it and lose their job, or don't do it and get picked on by the media.
Nothing to do with that. As has been said by others who are in the service (my wife is ambulance crew, so this is almost first hand), they work 12hr shifts with 2 breaks. They can choose in advance whether or not these breaks are protected.If they are protected then the crew should tell control when they are on break and if any jobs come up in that time they should be given to another crew.
My wife chooses not to protect her breaks and so earns a small amount extra per month, but often returns home from a 12hr shift with her sandwiches still unopened. If someone is willing to choose to do that then fine, but they should not be expected to work for 12yrs in a stressful and fatiguing job without a break.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
grumbledoak said:
The emergency services don't get to work to rule or strike, for me.
That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
No rights for paramedics. How dare they insist on being paid for working. I absolutely agree with you. They should work without pay every day. They should work 70 hours and be paid for 30. They should have their money reduced by cutting their hours but then be forced to work the hours cut to save money for free. That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
Johnnytheboy said:
Mr_annie_vxr said:
grumbledoak said:
The emergency services don't get to work to rule or strike, for me.
That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
No rights for paramedics. How dare they insist on being paid for working. I absolutely agree with you. They should work without pay every day. They should work 70 hours and be paid for 30. They should have their money reduced by cutting their hours but then be forced to work the hours cut to save money for free. That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
Increasingly there is not the opportunity to do so and so more and more staff are opting for the protected break. However, most staff would equally be more than happy to respond to a genuine emergency while on such a protected break, but the protected system doesn't work like that.
Most ambulance staff will tell you they don't object to being 'hammered' in a shift as long as there is the opportunity to grab a bite to eat & drink and maybe take a piss & a dump now and again. It seems to often be conveniently forgotten in the outrage of Tabloid hyperbole that we are not Robots.
Mr_annie_vxr said:
fluffnik said:
Chrisgr31 said:
Guess the answer is for them all to take breaks away from the radio!
I used to work in show business.During showtime there was only show.
Can it be so difficult to run s
t that actually matters to at least the same standard?If you don't give a f
k, fk off, we'll find someone who does...I have no problem with paying fire, ambulance or, indeed, stage crews for hanging about/making ships in bottles/picking their noses/knitting/whatever as long as they jump to when there is a job to do.
The problem could well be as much the fault of (mis)management culture as the tea drinker, but something is seriously borked regardless.
fluffnik said:
Mr_annie_vxr said:
fluffnik said:
Chrisgr31 said:
Guess the answer is for them all to take breaks away from the radio!
I used to work in show business.During showtime there was only show.
Can it be so difficult to run s
t that actually matters to at least the same standard?If you don't give a f
k, fk off, we'll find someone who does...I have no problem with paying fire, ambulance or, indeed, stage crews for hanging about/making ships in bottles/picking their noses/knitting/whatever as long as they jump to when there is a job to do.
The problem could well be as much the fault of (mis)management culture as the tea drinker, but something is seriously borked regardless.
In the South East and London dont be surprised if you call call 999 and a St John Ambulance turns up.
It is all down to bad management and this is just a consequence.
jamieboy said:
What does an ambulance driver / paramedic do when they're on duty, but not on a 'shout'?
irrelevant to the discussion and to be honest on the rare occasions you aren't on a call or being required to go to a standby point. it's a mad dash for the nearest depot / station to try and stock up the motor and unload clinical waste / soiled linen etc that you can't palm off into the hospital waste / laundry system system ... that's of course assuming you were in early enough to check your vehicle fully before getting a job .... then and only then might you get a chance to go through your pigeon hole or check your work email while grabbing a sneaky cup of tea ...No doubt someone will chip in that I'm not a 'proper' ambulance man becauae i'm not an employee of an NHS ambulance service and not a fully inducted member of the 'Cult of Millar', this has some validity but it doesn't change the fact i've done shifts as' 3rd man' on NHS motors or the fact that I routinely for the past 10 or so years have done NHS ambulance service shifts with SJA.
When I do shifts with SJA for our local NHS service I arrive at the vehicle 30 -45 minutes before I'm due to book on to do the legally required daily vehicle checks and to check the stock levels of the core equipment on the vehicle plus check and sign out a lifepak 12 in addition to the AED SJA vehicles carry - there is the opportunity to do this as the vehicles usually aren't being run around the clock .
These considerations are exactly the same regardless of whose uniform you wear and what name it says on the side of the Ambulance... the fun of course is increased when you are taking over a vehicle from one shift and going straight out in it, in an ideal world and with staggered shift starts Comms would be able to get each vehicle back to it's base 15 minutes before the end of the shift and not have jobs queued as soon as the keys have been handed over to the oncoming crew to all ow them to do their own checks and stock back up ...
breaks are unpaid under the NHS wide terms and conditions and technically there is nothing to stop people changing out of uniform and leaving site during their breaks... phone off, Data terminal in the vehicle to 'unavailable' and ignore the service radio / station landline ( which if you are off site or even just sat in the car park ) ...
Edited by mph1977 on Friday 5th November 18:07
killsta said:
Indeed, however from my understanding, they dispatch crews who are further away that are available before they send a closer crew that is on meal break.
the dispatch system will tell you which of the (tracked) assets is the closest available, and the dispatchers will allocate that resource to the call, there are also untracked assets such as community responders, certain groups of managers who may be available to respond and VAS vehicles which may be sent as well assuming whoever is responsible for dispatching them is on the ball... JumboBeef said:
killsta said:
From what I've gathered when I've spoken to ambulance staff, they work much differently than you'd expect.
They are given jobs by their control room, they don't just shout up for whatever they feel like/are closest to. It's up to the control room to decide who to send. Once dispatched their satnav tells them the route to take, and they cannot deviate from that route. Same goes for the route back to the hospital.
Strange, but it is the NHS afterall.
Not true. You can go whichever way you wish (within reason!)They are given jobs by their control room, they don't just shout up for whatever they feel like/are closest to. It's up to the control room to decide who to send. Once dispatched their satnav tells them the route to take, and they cannot deviate from that route. Same goes for the route back to the hospital.
Strange, but it is the NHS afterall.
1. the crew who did it
and
2. the background of the manager asking
if the crew are reasonable and the manager is one with a modicum of sense and operational experience it's not an issue , it when you have bolshy crews and as seen in some services 24 year year old 'locality operations managers' who have never crewed an ambulance in their life ( and are supposedly on the NHS lay manager graduate programme ) ....
some ambulance services have poor management structures including a lack of professional line management between the team leader and the board.... ( and the only reason there is professional line management at the board levle is because there are old school ambulance officers still in post) - compare that to the management structure that Nurses and other HPC professionals work in where lay management are kept out of decisions directly involved in patient care
Speaking first hand of this job, this thread has really got me angry. Our service allows one 30 minute meal break in 12 hours and that is it. This meal break has to come in the middle 3 hours of our shift, often due to service demand this doesn't happen. A huge majority of our service has to work over 10 hours before they get any break, forget a beak if you work in the rural stations.
We are allowed to be disturbed during our break and if we decide to attend a job we get a one of payment. I don't know of any colleague that would say no to attending an emergency. Driving on an emergency and attending a critically ill patient takes a lot of concentration, I for one would hate to cause an accident or give the wrong medication because I'm tired or hungry.
There are very few occaisions when we are just sat doing nothing, our service will not allow us to sit on base at any time other than our mealbreak. The remainder of the time we are driving to a designated standby point, restocking vehicles or on the odd occaision sat in the vehicle at the side of the road.
We probably have about 15 ambulances covering a large city, 10 large towns and a widespread rural area. We can take patients to four main hospitals covering approx 30 miles east to west and 50 miles north to south. Each one of these hospitals has a problem with holding ambulances - sometimes for over 90 mins and in a 24 hour period we probably attend approx 300-400 jobs. I have often been stuck at a patients address (or on the street) with a very ill patient awaiting an ambulance to transfer the patient for over an hour (I work on the cars).
We are expected to do any training in our own time, read and deal with emails at home, keep up to date with changes in protocols/guidelines in our own time and if you ever make a mistake or have an accident be prepared to be suspended without any support from the management.
This job is frustrating, demanding and very difficult at times, the last thing we need is the general public having a go at us, saying that we are lazy.
We are allowed to be disturbed during our break and if we decide to attend a job we get a one of payment. I don't know of any colleague that would say no to attending an emergency. Driving on an emergency and attending a critically ill patient takes a lot of concentration, I for one would hate to cause an accident or give the wrong medication because I'm tired or hungry.
There are very few occaisions when we are just sat doing nothing, our service will not allow us to sit on base at any time other than our mealbreak. The remainder of the time we are driving to a designated standby point, restocking vehicles or on the odd occaision sat in the vehicle at the side of the road.
We probably have about 15 ambulances covering a large city, 10 large towns and a widespread rural area. We can take patients to four main hospitals covering approx 30 miles east to west and 50 miles north to south. Each one of these hospitals has a problem with holding ambulances - sometimes for over 90 mins and in a 24 hour period we probably attend approx 300-400 jobs. I have often been stuck at a patients address (or on the street) with a very ill patient awaiting an ambulance to transfer the patient for over an hour (I work on the cars).
We are expected to do any training in our own time, read and deal with emails at home, keep up to date with changes in protocols/guidelines in our own time and if you ever make a mistake or have an accident be prepared to be suspended without any support from the management.
This job is frustrating, demanding and very difficult at times, the last thing we need is the general public having a go at us, saying that we are lazy.
Johnnytheboy said:
Mr_annie_vxr said:
grumbledoak said:
The emergency services don't get to work to rule or strike, for me.
That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
No rights for paramedics. How dare they insist on being paid for working. I absolutely agree with you. They should work without pay every day. They should work 70 hours and be paid for 30. They should have their money reduced by cutting their hours but then be forced to work the hours cut to save money for free. That woman is quite likely dead because he wanted the doughnut that was 'due to him'.
missdiane said:
Shouldn't tea breaks be as and when business allows?
Each crew is part of a service wide picture of resourcing, many ambulance services have dozens of different shift times to try and prevent issues with availability due to shift change over and break times For the Service I do shifts with SJA for on a 12 hour shift we are supposed to have 2 * 30 minute breaks the first break is required to start 4 to 6 hours into the shift and the second 8 to 10 (IIRC) - this is the same as the service's own Staff.
There is also statutory requirement that you have 20 minutes break after 6 hours of work...
K77 CTR said:
Speaking first hand of this job, this thread has really got me angry. Our service allows one 30 minute meal break in 12 hours and that is it. This meal break has to come in the middle 3 hours of our shift, often due to service demand this doesn't happen. A huge majority of our service has to work over 10 hours before they get any break, forget a beak if you work in the rural stations.
We are allowed to be disturbed during our break and if we decide to attend a job we get a one of payment. I don't know of any colleague that would say no to attending an emergency. Driving on an emergency and attending a critically ill patient takes a lot of concentration, I for one would hate to cause an accident or give the wrong medication because I'm tired or hungry.
There are very few occaisions when we are just sat doing nothing, our service will not allow us to sit on base at any time other than our mealbreak. The remainder of the time we are driving to a designated standby point, restocking vehicles or on the odd occaision sat in the vehicle at the side of the road.
We probably have about 15 ambulances covering a large city, 10 large towns and a widespread rural area. We can take patients to four main hospitals covering approx 30 miles east to west and 50 miles north to south. Each one of these hospitals has a problem with holding ambulances - sometimes for over 90 mins and in a 24 hour period we probably attend approx 300-400 jobs. I have often been stuck at a patients address (or on the street) with a very ill patient awaiting an ambulance to transfer the patient for over an hour (I work on the cars).
We are expected to do any training in our own time, read and deal with emails at home, keep up to date with changes in protocols/guidelines in our own time and if you ever make a mistake or have an accident be prepared to be suspended without any support from the management.
This job is frustrating, demanding and very difficult at times, the last thing we need is the general public having a go at us, saying that we are lazy.
This is totally different to very rural crews of course (like the bloke in the story which this whole thread is about). Often they don't do a single job all day (spend all day waiting on station) and yet still sign off for 30-45 minutes in the middle of it. When they are signed off, there is no ambulance cover in that area: the nearest ambulance can be 15-20 miles away (along rural roads).We are allowed to be disturbed during our break and if we decide to attend a job we get a one of payment. I don't know of any colleague that would say no to attending an emergency. Driving on an emergency and attending a critically ill patient takes a lot of concentration, I for one would hate to cause an accident or give the wrong medication because I'm tired or hungry.
There are very few occaisions when we are just sat doing nothing, our service will not allow us to sit on base at any time other than our mealbreak. The remainder of the time we are driving to a designated standby point, restocking vehicles or on the odd occaision sat in the vehicle at the side of the road.
We probably have about 15 ambulances covering a large city, 10 large towns and a widespread rural area. We can take patients to four main hospitals covering approx 30 miles east to west and 50 miles north to south. Each one of these hospitals has a problem with holding ambulances - sometimes for over 90 mins and in a 24 hour period we probably attend approx 300-400 jobs. I have often been stuck at a patients address (or on the street) with a very ill patient awaiting an ambulance to transfer the patient for over an hour (I work on the cars).
We are expected to do any training in our own time, read and deal with emails at home, keep up to date with changes in protocols/guidelines in our own time and if you ever make a mistake or have an accident be prepared to be suspended without any support from the management.
This job is frustrating, demanding and very difficult at times, the last thing we need is the general public having a go at us, saying that we are lazy.
Edited by JumboBeef on Friday 5th November 18:36
Chrisgr31 said:
In the South East and London dont be surprised if you call call 999 and a St John Ambulance turns up.
It is all down to bad management and this is just a consequence.
such a good post spoiled only by the above. It is all down to bad management and this is just a consequence.
St John Ambulance and the British Red Cross are the Reserve of Choice for NHS ambulance services , they are committed to the civil contingencies act arrangements and as part of this it is usual to see this reserve excerised outside of the all out CCA work.
both SJA and BRC have national Medical, Nursing and Paramedic managers, SJA is required to have these posts at county level.
SJA ambulance crew are reassessed by Paramedics against Nationally agreed standards drawn directly from the National Occupational Standard for Ambulance crews at the technician level ( although not all tech NOS outcomes are assessed - the principle omissions are some drug therapies and manual defibrillation) on an annual basis, and are required to demonstrate ongoing professional development and well as an ongoing commitment to actually doing the work, this of course discounts the ongoing supervision and mentorship while in clinical practice by Health professionals who crew for SJA and who clinically manage public duties.
I cannot provide the same level of detail for BRC crews as i don't work / volunteer for them , but their ambulance crew award is validated by the IHCD along with their versions of the internal quality standards described above for SJA.
JumboBeef said:
This is totally different to very rural crews of course (like the bloke in the story which this whole thread is about). Often they don't do a single job all day (spend all day waiting on station) and yet still sign off for 30-45 minutes in the middle of it. When they are signed off, there is no ambulance cover in that area: the nearest ambulance can be 15-20 miles away (alone rural roads).
I admit that the service I work for is nowhere near as rural as Scotland cover but our rural stations have to follow the same rules as the rest of us and are often tasked at providing cover in the busier areas. You point out that this thread is the bloke in the story, so why are most posts talking about the ambulance service in general? I apologise for going off on one.
Imagine 11 hours without a break then a paediatric cardiac arrest comes in where you have to calculate 2 different drugs doses, ET tube size, how much the child weighs using formulas, how many joules to shock, plus sticking to the correct algorithm whilst keeping the family calm and directing a new starter who is your only back up on what to do...
That's the type of pressure we deal with and get paid for, indeed it's why we do the job. But we are only human at the end of the day.
That's the type of pressure we deal with and get paid for, indeed it's why we do the job. But we are only human at the end of the day.
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