Ambulance tea break death
Discussion
Posting from the drivers seat of my RRV! Can't get much more front line than that!
To help give some context regarding cover, Town A has 3 ambulances on a day shift. Nearest other ambulance station is 12 miles away in town B with 1 ambulance.
If one crew goes out for a job that leaves 2 ambulances in Town A. A 3 car RTC involving 5 people occurs. So both ambulances from Town A get launched as does the 1 ambulance from town B.
That now leaves for arguments sake 25+ square miles and the population of both towns plus rural with no ambulance cover within 30 mins drive. 999 call comes in and nearest resources is a long way off.
My point is no matter what cover is in place sometimes those plans don't matter if a spate of jobs come into an area without a large amount of resources. Hope that helps provide some context to the subject matter.
To help give some context regarding cover, Town A has 3 ambulances on a day shift. Nearest other ambulance station is 12 miles away in town B with 1 ambulance.
If one crew goes out for a job that leaves 2 ambulances in Town A. A 3 car RTC involving 5 people occurs. So both ambulances from Town A get launched as does the 1 ambulance from town B.
That now leaves for arguments sake 25+ square miles and the population of both towns plus rural with no ambulance cover within 30 mins drive. 999 call comes in and nearest resources is a long way off.
My point is no matter what cover is in place sometimes those plans don't matter if a spate of jobs come into an area without a large amount of resources. Hope that helps provide some context to the subject matter.
Engineer1 said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Burrito said:
I'm sitting on the fence with this one. But just to adjust the scenario slightly, how would you feel if the technician was on his day off, sat on his sofa but still only 300 yards away and they called his mobile asking him to attend?
When it might save someone's life? I'm quite comfortable with that.The issue is that the system is f
ked, if a system can only function if people do more than they are employed to do and are regularly expected to work over and above what they have been contracted to do. There are 100's if not 1000's of daft things in the NHS that mean all sorts of front line employees get the guilt trip laid on them and they stay late, come in early, do extra days as overtime etc all so their unit/ department can function. Things like grading of hospitals so certain patients may be taken to the nearest hospital then transferred if their condition changes, guess who does the transfers, this means an ambulance can be transferring patients long distances, despite the government saying patients could choose the hospital they want to be treated in.
The real issue is that the NHS need to do a serious and honest review of staffing and cover, if they are relying on good will then the goodwill will dry up, you can't demand more and more from people and treat them as though they where overpaid.
I don't think I'd particularly enjoy my official union tea break knowing someone was dying up the road and I had the means to prevent it.
Johnny that's the point the sods try and pull the ooh you heartless bd, and certainly in the units I know about they are short of staff and relying on guilt tripping people into coming into work. If you have a unit that needs 15 staff to cover it but you are running with 10 and relying on overtime to cover the shortfall it is unsustainable.
The fact that health care workers tend to have chosen the vocation because they care means they need the protection, from the bosses taking advantage of their caring nature, combined with the fact the press will leap on any employee who by following the rules gets in a position where a patient suffers.
d, and certainly in the units I know about they are short of staff and relying on guilt tripping people into coming into work. If you have a unit that needs 15 staff to cover it but you are running with 10 and relying on overtime to cover the shortfall it is unsustainable. The fact that health care workers tend to have chosen the vocation because they care means they need the protection, from the bosses taking advantage of their caring nature, combined with the fact the press will leap on any employee who by following the rules gets in a position where a patient suffers.
Guys, I have been deliberately staying out of this one as I was involved and would be in all kinds of trouble if seen but just wanted to clarify a few facts to some of the posters who very obviously don't understand how the mealbreak thing works. As already explained this came about as a reduction in the working week from 40 to 37.5hrs and was imposed upon us, we did not want it. It is unpaid. Most other services offered staff a payment to be available which was roughly comparable with the hourly rate plus a payment if used but the SAS offered £250 plus a fiver if called out, a lot of people took this initially out of dedication to the patients but ended up being used routinely by EMDC despite supposedly being a "last resort" often single manned so withdrew from it the next year. Believe me when we say we would rather be available for the entire 12/10/8 hour shift but less than minimum wage is not a realistic way of achieving this - something the politicians who have got involved with this unfortunate case have been reluctant to accept it was their doing!
The guy in question was a relief probationer tech covering the station with an auxiliary working from home (arguable as to whether he should have been in that position to begin with), EMDC (control) have a meal break management system on their computer and they determine when you have your break (not self determined as some are suggesting) EMDC had called and switched him off and as he was unavailable (as were the rest of the staff in that station at the time of the call) they should NOT have contacted him (and in my view should have been up on bullying and harassment charges for doing so) as some have correctly said he is quite entitled to leave the station for the duration of his break if he so wishes, being inexperienced and in a station who do approx 10 jobs a month when the phone rang he wrongly assumed it would have been a personal call. He was asked if he was available (they knew he was not) and said he was not and they then contacted the next nearest station. The outcome would not have been any different and the suggestion that the patient would have been saved or "chose not to respond" as "he sat having his sandwich and tea while she died" is ridiculous and offensive, the matter was referred the the HPC by the management and as has already been said by others there was no case to answer. The ramifications of this will run and run and the "witch hunt" and small town "lynchmob" mentality fueled by colleagues has been amazing and rather worrying to be honest.
These are of course my personal views etc etc
The guy in question was a relief probationer tech covering the station with an auxiliary working from home (arguable as to whether he should have been in that position to begin with), EMDC (control) have a meal break management system on their computer and they determine when you have your break (not self determined as some are suggesting) EMDC had called and switched him off and as he was unavailable (as were the rest of the staff in that station at the time of the call) they should NOT have contacted him (and in my view should have been up on bullying and harassment charges for doing so) as some have correctly said he is quite entitled to leave the station for the duration of his break if he so wishes, being inexperienced and in a station who do approx 10 jobs a month when the phone rang he wrongly assumed it would have been a personal call. He was asked if he was available (they knew he was not) and said he was not and they then contacted the next nearest station. The outcome would not have been any different and the suggestion that the patient would have been saved or "chose not to respond" as "he sat having his sandwich and tea while she died" is ridiculous and offensive, the matter was referred the the HPC by the management and as has already been said by others there was no case to answer. The ramifications of this will run and run and the "witch hunt" and small town "lynchmob" mentality fueled by colleagues has been amazing and rather worrying to be honest.
These are of course my personal views etc etc
I'm confused Jaf ; how come the guy was referred to the HPC when he was a Techie? He wouldn't be registered with them and as such they have fk-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry.
k-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry."relying on guilt tripping " yeah that's what I meant to say.
Example.
Wife went on her carers round today (6th day on the trot 2 days off next) at 0630 as usual.
We had 4" snow last night.
Due to the bad weather and the council girls (in Perth) not getting in due to the weather (go figure) the agency girls took the strain.
She drove 94 miles today.
There has been as "issue" with gritting in Perth and Kinross, today she had a dude do a 360 directly in front of her at 0655 in Perth [@ 56° 23.165'N 3° 25.164'W] which shook her up.
So me (and wee one) did her round with her, I was driving. It was bad, in the late morning, I don't know how she hacked the morning drive on the A90 with snow on a dubiously salted trunk route. Thank F for vredestien winters.
Mo.
Example.
Wife went on her carers round today (6th day on the trot 2 days off next) at 0630 as usual.
We had 4" snow last night.
Due to the bad weather and the council girls (in Perth) not getting in due to the weather (go figure) the agency girls took the strain.
She drove 94 miles today.
There has been as "issue" with gritting in Perth and Kinross, today she had a dude do a 360 directly in front of her at 0655 in Perth [@ 56° 23.165'N 3° 25.164'W] which shook her up.
So me (and wee one) did her round with her, I was driving. It was bad, in the late morning, I don't know how she hacked the morning drive on the A90 with snow on a dubiously salted trunk route. Thank F for vredestien winters.
Mo.
The guy was on his protected break and cover was being provided. If the nhs or ambulance service felt comfortable to deem this cover to be adequate for any given set of circumstances then that's the long and short of it and the paramedic in question has no case to answer. He was as off duty as the one at home on the street of the incident. The system is hugely compromised but that's how it works in the UK, there are 1000s of cases every year where this compromise has serious consequences but in this one the media have sought to make it a juicy story to have peoples heckles raised. All the extraneous bull about the family being ambulance crew is clear indication that this is media hypebole dressed to outrage.
People also don't seem to realise two additional facts:
- Most people cardiac arresting outside hospital will die
- most people cardiac arresting inside hospital will also die.
No amount of ambulance cover will change that.
People also don't seem to realise two additional facts:
- Most people cardiac arresting outside hospital will die
- most people cardiac arresting inside hospital will also die.
No amount of ambulance cover will change that.
Edited by JuniorD on Monday 10th January 00:42
maddog993 said:
I'm confused Jaf ; how come the guy was referred to the HPC when he was a Techie? He wouldn't be registered with them and as such they have fk-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry.
All new Techs are Foundation Paramedics. k-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry.http://www.scottishambulance.com/UserFiles/file/Wo...
Although he was only at Tech level, he was also on Year One of a Two Year Para course. The HPC were informed because they would be meeting him one day when (if!) he completes Year Two.
jaf01uk said:
EMDC had called and switched him off and as he was unavailable (as were the rest of the staff in that station at the time of the call) they should NOT have contacted him
Your post is spot on, apart from one thing. The Tech was unavailable but the aux driver (the one who ratted to the media) was not (and she was at home too)! Control were trying to get in touch with her (to those who do not know, everyone on the road in the Ambulance Service have had basic CPR training).Edited by JumboBeef on Monday 10th January 13:29
JumboBeef said:
maddog993 said:
I'm confused Jaf ; how come the guy was referred to the HPC when he was a Techie? He wouldn't be registered with them and as such they have fk-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry.
All new Techs are Foundation Paramedics. k-all jurisdiction - the Trust might just as well have referred the case to the GMC or even Fifa for all the gravitas their 'judgement' would carry.http://www.scottishambulance.com/UserFiles/file/Wo...
Although he was only at Tech level, he was also on Year One of a Two Year Para course. The HPC were informed because they would be meeting him one day when (if!) he completes Year Two.
jaf01uk said:
EMDC had called and switched him off and as he was unavailable (as were the rest of the staff in that station at the time of the call) they should NOT have contacted him
Your post is spot on, apart from one thing. The Tech was unavailable but the aux driver (the one who ratted to the media) was not (and she was at home too)! Control were trying to get in touch with her (to those who do not know, everyone on the road in the Ambulance Service have had basic CPR training).Edited by JumboBeef on Monday 10th January 13:29
Edit to add explanation of auxiliaries for those unfamiliar, they are employed on on call stations as drivers and do not actually work shifts as such, they are at home and the qualified member picks them up on the way to a job, the vehicle stays with the qualified member, existing auxiliaries are trained to basic first person on scene standards. They are paid an annual retainer and then pro rata as and when they are used.
Edited by jaf01uk on Monday 10th January 21:37
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