Bomber Command Memorial will attract VAT

[DJC]

Harris. Loathed and reviled in equal measures by the apologists and moralists. Condemned as a mass murderer by the liberals and socialists and quickly used then forgotten by the Establishment as a convenient scapegoat. By extension therefore, so was the rest of Bomber Command judged.

The trouble is though such people dont understand bullies. They dont understand the petty little smallness that drives bullies to try and trample on all before them and Hitler was nothing except your classic bully. They take delight in doing what others look upon with tears. They dont understand that you need s like Harris to draw the line, look the bully in the eye and tell him "Cross it and Im going to fk you up by every conceivable means at my disposal and when there are none Im going to invent them". Such men you dont promote as the national heros, you dont sing the songs about, you dont show off to the rest of the world, instead you bury them and at best hope nobody ever noticed them or you use them as scapegoats. The British political machine is a past master at such things, but fortunately us Brits are a uniquely awkward bunch. What the apologising moralists will never understand is that give a Harris to lead us and we will follow him.

[Eric Mc]

Harris wasn't Bomber Command. In fact, Harris didn't even invent Bomber Command policy. That was invented by the politicians.

He was given a task and he set about carrying it out with all the zeal he could muster. When the politicians later began to get cold feet, he insisted on sticking to his brief. However, he wasn't always successful and on quite a few occasions he had to bend to pressure from his commanders.

[DJC]

Harris was Bomber Command. Bomber Command was Harris.

That is etched in stone. The technicality of the truth is irrelevent.

[Eric Mc]

DJC said:

Harris was Bomber Command. Bomber Command was Harris.

That is etched in stone. The technicality of the truth is irrelevent.

I would say the "techicallity" of the truth simply means "the truth".

On some very important issues, he was overuled and had to cow tow to his superiors. Classic examples of situations where he was overruled are -

the establishment of elite bomber squadrons for specialist missions, most famously the Dambusters Raids (there were others)

the transfer of Bomber Command aircraft and crews to Coastal Command and the Middle and Far East

the transfer of Bomber Command assets from the strategic bombing of Germany to the tactical bombing requirements in the lead up to D-Day and subsequent tactical missions after D-Day

Also, don't forget that Harris was only appointed Commander in Chief of Bomber Command in April 1942. Even if you think the 55,000 Bomber Command aircrew who died do not derserve a memorial because of their commander in chief (which to me is a pretty odd atitude to have), from September 1939 through to April 1942 (almost three years of the war) they weren't even serving under him.

Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 31st December 09:26

[eccles]

Eric Mc said:

Mattt said:

Engineer1 said:

we seem to be getting to the point that the young don't know anyone who fought in the war or whose lives where altered by the war.

I think, sadly, that this is the case - and the more the years go on, the less attention will be paid to memorials & the memories of those who were lost during the wars.

World War 2 teachings are (or were) missing off the Curriculum for KS3 History, but WW1 was included. I think this needs changing - I can still vividly remember my visit to Ypres & the Somme memorials, probably the most worthwhile trip I ever undertook at school.

The youngest (legal/18+) soldier involved in WW2 will be 83 now, so I doubt anyone born now will ever learn about the war from first hand accounts.

I've often wondered why the "educationalists" put more weight on knowledge of WW1 compared to WW2? Was it, I wonder, because they perceived the treatment of the "ordinary Tommy" as evidence of a "Class War" element of WW1 which fitted in with their 1960s socialist agenda?
Also, did no one write poems in WW2? Where are all the WW2 poets?
Or is it just that the educationalists felt that WW1 poetry also backed up their view of the class system?.

I think it's because WW1 had a much bigger effect on the society of the time. The 'pals' regiments could wipe out just about all the males in some villages and towns, and there was a fundamental change in society after the war. No longer were the peasant class willing to be just peasants, and the class barriers were irreparably damaged.

WW2 didn't have such a big effect, as the big changes had already been made. You could say (in the very broadest sense) that main social effect of WW2 was freeing women from traditional womens roles, laying the ground work for the womens lib movement that was to come.

[PaulHogan]

Eric Mc said:

PaulHogan said:

Zaxxon said:

Bomber Command lost the most men of any specific campaign during WW2, something like 55,000 men.
I think that if any group of people deserve their own momorial then it's them.

Also Bomber command never recieved their own medal for the campaign, whereas other campaigns did.

Many supporters of bomber command and it's members believe that they were ignored because of the post war backlash against Sir Arthur Harris

I applaud the sentiment of your post but can't let the text I have boldened go unchallenged.

What about the Eastern front where 20,000,000 plus Russians and 6,000,000 Germans died?
Or the 5,400,000 victims of Japanese war crimes?
Or the additional 250,000 civilian famine deaths in occupied Germany in 1946?

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualti... to see a breakdown of sorts of the (who really knows?) 70,000,000 dead.

This is Britain. It's our right and duty to honour those who have fallen whilst serving this country.

If others have died for their country, their country can erect a memorial to them (which, of course, many do).

It is a disgrace that 65 years after WW2 ended, up to now no formal recognition of the role of Bomber Command has been properly made. This monument is that recognition.
Please also don't forget that Bomber Command took part in other campaigns over and above the strategic bombing of Germany.

Except, of course, for the memorial at Runnymede; the statue of Bomber Harris outside the RAF church of St Clement Dane’s in the Strand; and the little known (or conveniently overlooked) permanent memorial at Lisset.

[Eric Mc]

Not surprised it's overlooked - to be honest. It's not exactly eye catching otr thought provoking.

In fact, there are dozens and dozens of memorials to bomber crerws scattered all around the UK.

It's official recongnition that's missing.

[PaulHogan]

Eric Mc said:

Not surprised it's overlooked - to be honest. It's not exactly eye catching otr thought provoking.

You have always been unable to even concede a point let alone lose an argument graciously have you?

Eric Mc said:

In fact, there are dozens and dozens of memorials to bomber crerws scattered all around the UK.

Quite simply, I do not believe you: name them.

Eric Mc said:

It's official recongnition that's missing.

In the form of a medal, you are correct: in the form of a memorial, you are wrong. Although there isn't one in London (apart from the statue of Harris), but not every damn thing that represents this country should be in London.

[Zaxxon]

Eccles, I think that WW2 had a far greater effect on society than WW1.

It pretty much spelled the end for the Empire.
The Blitz had a massive impact on British life.
Once the news of the concentration camps reached home, the wars impact changed society as a whole.
It started the Cold War which left society to live in fear for the next 45 years.
It kick started the US dominance of the globe in terms of industry, technology, and unfortunatly culture. It also kick started the Japanese dominance of industry etc.
And finally it gave us an embryonic form of computers

[Eric Mc]

PaulHogan said:

Eric Mc said:

Not surprised it's overlooked - to be honest. It's not exactly eye catching otr thought provoking.

You have always been unable to even concede a point let alone lose an argument graciously have you?

Eric Mc said:

In fact, there are dozens and dozens of memorials to bomber crerws scattered all around the UK.

Quite simply, I do not believe you: name them.

Eric Mc said:

It's official recongnition that's missing.

In the form of a medal, you are correct: in the form of a memorial, you are wrong. Although there isn't one in London (apart from the statue of Harris), but not every damn thing that represents this country should be in London.

I'm not going to enter into an argument as to whether I am garcious or not.
I'll let other PHers decide what they think of me.

I can't name all the memorials that exist to bomber crews, there are just too many of them.

I am a regular reader of Flypast and Aeroplane Monthly and nearly every month they report on new memorials which have been set up to individual aircrews who were killed on actual bombing or training missions (both RAF and USAAF - and sometimes even Luftwaffe).

I was on a walk above Broadway in the Costwolds a few years ago and came across a memorial to a Whitley crew who flew into the hillside on a traing missions. These types of small but poignant memorials are all over the place.

[ExChrispy Porker]

Zaxxon said:

Eccles, I think that WW2 had a far greater effect on society than WW1.

It pretty much spelled the end for the Empire.
The Blitz had a massive impact on British life.
Once the news of the concentration camps reached home, the wars impact changed society as a whole.
It started the Cold War which left society to live in fear for the next 45 years.
It kick started the US dominance of the globe in terms of industry, technology, and unfortunatly culture. It also kick started the Japanese dominance of industry etc.
And finally it gave us an embryonic form of computers

WW1 had the greater effect.
It sowed the seeds for WW2.

[Eric Mc]

ExChrispy Porker said:

Zaxxon said:

Eccles, I think that WW2 had a far greater effect on society than WW1.

It pretty much spelled the end for the Empire.
The Blitz had a massive impact on British life.
Once the news of the concentration camps reached home, the wars impact changed society as a whole.
It started the Cold War which left society to live in fear for the next 45 years.
It kick started the US dominance of the globe in terms of industry, technology, and unfortunatly culture. It also kick started the Japanese dominance of industry etc.
And finally it gave us an embryonic form of computers

WW1 had the greater effect.
It sowed the seeds for WW2.

I blame the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 - not to mention the Russian-Japanese war of 1905.

Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 31st December 13:33

[ExChrispy Porker]

Eric Mc said:

ExChrispy Porker said:

Zaxxon said:

Eccles, I think that WW2 had a far greater effect on society than WW1.

It pretty much spelled the end for the Empire.
The Blitz had a massive impact on British life.
Once the news of the concentration camps reached home, the wars impact changed society as a whole.
It started the Cold War which left society to live in fear for the next 45 years.
It kick started the US dominance of the globe in terms of industry, technology, and unfortunatly culture. It also kick started the Japanese dominance of industry etc.
And finally it gave us an embryonic form of computers

WW1 had the greater effect.
It sowed the seeds for WW2.

I blame the Franco-Prussian War of 1870 - not to mention the Russian-Japanese war of 1905.

Edited by Eric Mc on Friday 31st December 13:33

Fair enough. But WW2 was virtually inevitable post Versailles.

[Eric Mc]

I'm just joking.

There is no doubt that the outcome of WW1 had a major influence on WW2 happening. But all history has consequences for the future so you can see links in all sorts of historical events.

That's why it's such an interesting subject.

[PF62]

Saddle bum said:

Change in law could leave Bomber Command Memorial with £250k VAT bill

It is not a change in the law, just part of the coalition government cuts -

http://www.memorialgrant.org.uk/

Pity the Telegraph journalists couldn't find the same in the 30 seconds it took me, but I suppose the correct facts would have spoilt the story.

[Randy Winkman]

PF62 said:

Saddle bum said:

Change in law could leave Bomber Command Memorial with £250k VAT bill

It is not a change in the law, just part of the coalition government cuts -

http://www.memorialgrant.org.uk/

Pity the Telegraph journalists couldn't find the same in the 30 seconds it took me, but I suppose the correct facts would have spoilt the story.

Glad we're back on topic - what's the difference between a "change in the law" and a "cut"?

[PF62]

Randy Winkman said:

Glad we're back on topic - what's the difference between a "change in the law" and a "cut"?

Would it be anything to do with distancing the current government from the cuts, after all who remembers any recent legislation changing the law on this, so it must have been the other lot.

And how palatable would it be for the average Telegraph reader to see the current government choosing to make cuts that would impact on them or their causes, rather than making cuts on welfare scroungers.

[Eric Mc]

PF62 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Glad we're back on topic - what's the difference between a "change in the law" and a "cut"?

Would it be anything to do with distancing the current government from the cuts, after all who remembers any recent legislation changing the law on this, so it must have been the other lot.

And how palatable would it be for the average Telegraph reader to see the current government choosing to make cuts that would impact on them or their causes, rather than making cuts on welfare scroungers.

The original tax break might have had a finite life and the current government have chosen not to renew the legislation when it expires.

[dandarez]

Eric Mc said:

PF62 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Glad we're back on topic - what's the difference between a "change in the law" and a "cut"?

Would it be anything to do with distancing the current government from the cuts, after all who remembers any recent legislation changing the law on this, so it must have been the other lot.

And how palatable would it be for the average Telegraph reader to see the current government choosing to make cuts that would impact on them or their causes, rather than making cuts on welfare scroungers.

The original tax break might have had a finite life and the current government have chosen not to renew the legislation when it expires.

It's savings... ie: CUTBACKS!
Regardless.

[Randy Winkman]

Eric Mc said:

PF62 said:

Randy Winkman said:

Glad we're back on topic - what's the difference between a "change in the law" and a "cut"?

Would it be anything to do with distancing the current government from the cuts, after all who remembers any recent legislation changing the law on this, so it must have been the other lot.

And how palatable would it be for the average Telegraph reader to see the current government choosing to make cuts that would impact on them or their causes, rather than making cuts on welfare scroungers.

The original tax break might have had a finite life and the current government have chosen not to renew the legislation when it expires.

So the current Government has decided to scrap the tax break then. It's easy enough to blame New Labour for stuff - they were c**p. But blaming them for stuff which is the new Government's fault is pointless, in my opinion.