Riots at HMP Ford
Discussion
TopOnePercent said:
To get sent to prison - any prison - these days takes a very serious offence.
untrue... it is true that a lot of very serious offences will not get you sent there, but on the other hand plenty of trifling offences get you send there as well... the law makes little sense...Somewhatfoolish said:
TopOnePercent said:
To get sent to prison - any prison - these days takes a very serious offence.
untrue... it is true that a lot of very serious offences will not get you sent there, but on the other hand plenty of trifling offences get you send there as well... the law makes little sense...Chris_H said:
10 Pence Short said:
In Wealstun, especially on Saturday evenings when the staffing levels were lower, the cell block absolutely stunk of skunk. Not just the faint whiff- it was obvious to anybody walking into the building that rather a lot of inmates were smoking it.
There was the occassional dog raid in the 2 and a bit months I spent there, but only one lad on our wing got caught in possession.
I don't understand why they risk it. All they need is a MDT and they could be looking at going back to closed conditions! I know it goes on at Ford as well. Lets face it, with only two screws and a handful of support staff covering a site of that size, they can pretty much do what they like as long as they can stand by their doors in the morning! However, as I said, therisk is always there of being called for a MDT.There was the occassional dog raid in the 2 and a bit months I spent there, but only one lad on our wing got caught in possession.
The problem is the overcrowding. Even with a positive test or two under their belts, most of the worst offenders still only got put on Basic at worst. I only saw two lads get carted off to Cat C in nearly 3 months- one was a dealer and they found his book in his room, the other was just a nonce who had a very big mouth and got caught with some class As. Considering Wealstun D had the benefit of Wealstun C being right next door, even then the Governor was pretty unwilling to move prisoners unless he really had to.
In fact, you got the impression they'd rather the prisoner absconded (which they did at the rate of about one a week) than went through the punishment system.
I used to get wound up because without the layabouts and the dossers (who should have stayed in Cat B/C), the open prison actually ran very well and everybody got on with it.
Halb said:
Tallbut Buxomly said:
madcyril said:
Eric Mc said:
madcyril said:
i did some work at a open prison last year its like butlins 
That bad - huh?More like Maplins?
Hope whomever was in charge of letting baddie prisoners mix with goodie prisoners gets fired, or reprimanded properly, but I doubt it.
I dont recall ever going onto any of the wings that burnt down at ford which seem to me to be the more populated butlins design.
Tallbut Buxomly said:
WhoseGeneration said:
whoami said:
Maybe we should just have 2 staff at all prisons then?
Yup, one on the "in" gate, one on the "out" gate.All problems solved.
I'm just trying to explain the complexities involved here.
A somewhat facetious comment from me relating to the two POs on duty in this case.
Though, some would argue, that's all it needs, let them in, to fend for themselves in that environment and then, at end of sentence, let them out.
I have previously suggested that my view of the prison system is that it is a failure.
To change that would, I suspect, mean costs that no politician would be able to justify, or sell to, their electorate.
Muddle on, as in so many other areas of the State.
I disagree i think prisons could be made to work at a much lower cost and be much more effective however there are too many limp wristed people complete and utter f
kwits involved.
Some of what the government has recently proposed was actually reasonably intelligent but due to the way it will most likely be applied it wont be of any use.
There is at present a new cost saving and eco friendly measure been brought in at all prisons in the uk.
Laughably it is costing the prison service more money than it is saving them and more than the old system used to. Sadly someone highish up the food chain came up with this idea no doubt to justify their pointless overpaid job.
kwits involved.Some of what the government has recently proposed was actually reasonably intelligent but due to the way it will most likely be applied it wont be of any use.
There is at present a new cost saving and eco friendly measure been brought in at all prisons in the uk.
Laughably it is costing the prison service more money than it is saving them and more than the old system used to. Sadly someone highish up the food chain came up with this idea no doubt to justify their pointless overpaid job.
Tallbut Buxomly said:
I disagree i think prisons could be made to work at a much lower cost and be much more effective however there are too many limp wristed people complete and utter fkwits involved.
Some of what the government has recently proposed was actually reasonably intelligent but due to the way it will most likely be applied it wont be of any use.
There is at present a new cost saving and eco friendly measure been brought in at all prisons in the uk.
Laughably it is costing the prison service more money than it is saving them and more than the old system used to. Sadly someone highish up the food chain came up with this idea no doubt to justify their pointless overpaid job.
Care to expand?kwits involved.Some of what the government has recently proposed was actually reasonably intelligent but due to the way it will most likely be applied it wont be of any use.
There is at present a new cost saving and eco friendly measure been brought in at all prisons in the uk.
Laughably it is costing the prison service more money than it is saving them and more than the old system used to. Sadly someone highish up the food chain came up with this idea no doubt to justify their pointless overpaid job.
That aside, liberal humanist societies find it outside their beliefs to have a prison policy that emulates ultra left or ultra right societies.
Some might ask, which society has less visible crime?
Or, to turn the argument, the prevalence of crime would indicate a more "free" society.
Prisons should be a seat of learning. Not learning new crimes, but new skills that will keep the inmates from feeling tied to a life of crime.
Dependencies and addictions should be treated with an eye on life outside, beyond prison, rather than just coping with life inside. Education and work placements within prisons should be expanded to embrace the majority of prisoners, rather than the minority.
Someone entering prison should be set a target to be a more productive member of society by the time they leave. That might be something as simple as a food hygiene certificate or as fundamental as gaining the ability to read and write.
The problem with these goals is that they're both expensive and require the prisoners to be complicit. I would have thought a release date that takes into account the achievements during time in prison would be incentive for both parties- prisoners get their freedom back early and gain extra skills, prisons gain space and save cost in keeping those prisoners locked up.
Dependencies and addictions should be treated with an eye on life outside, beyond prison, rather than just coping with life inside. Education and work placements within prisons should be expanded to embrace the majority of prisoners, rather than the minority.
Someone entering prison should be set a target to be a more productive member of society by the time they leave. That might be something as simple as a food hygiene certificate or as fundamental as gaining the ability to read and write.
The problem with these goals is that they're both expensive and require the prisoners to be complicit. I would have thought a release date that takes into account the achievements during time in prison would be incentive for both parties- prisoners get their freedom back early and gain extra skills, prisons gain space and save cost in keeping those prisoners locked up.
10 Pence Short said:
Prisons should be a seat of learning. Not learning new crimes, but new skills that will keep the inmates from feeling tied to a life of crime.
Dependencies and addictions should be treated with an eye on life outside, beyond prison, rather than just coping with life inside. Education and work placements within prisons should be expanded to embrace the majority of prisoners, rather than the minority.
Someone entering prison should be set a target to be a more productive member of society by the time they leave. That might be something as simple as a food hygiene certificate or as fundamental as gaining the ability to read and write.
The problem with these goals is that they're both expensive and require the prisoners to be complicit. I would have thought a release date that takes into account the achievements during time in prison would be incentive for both parties- prisoners get their freedom back early and gain extra skills, prisons gain space and save cost in keeping those prisoners locked up.
All true, but seeing as prisoners only serve 1/2 their sentences already how much earlier could they be released?Dependencies and addictions should be treated with an eye on life outside, beyond prison, rather than just coping with life inside. Education and work placements within prisons should be expanded to embrace the majority of prisoners, rather than the minority.
Someone entering prison should be set a target to be a more productive member of society by the time they leave. That might be something as simple as a food hygiene certificate or as fundamental as gaining the ability to read and write.
The problem with these goals is that they're both expensive and require the prisoners to be complicit. I would have thought a release date that takes into account the achievements during time in prison would be incentive for both parties- prisoners get their freedom back early and gain extra skills, prisons gain space and save cost in keeping those prisoners locked up.
The approach I would rather is that early release is conditional on completing various programs but then overcrowding may rise. The solution may be to remove all sentences less than 6 months with proper community punishments for everything lower than this, can't see that one going down too well with the Wail crowd though.
What 10p says is fairly accurate.
There are a variety of problems.
Firstly as it stands prison is not a disincentive to be involved in criminal activity.
Secondly there is very little in the way of throughcare for prisoners who wish to reform.
Now throughcare being support once they have left prison to stay on the right track and become useful member of society.
So as 10p says change needs to be all over. Most prisoners are offered learning and skills training by the prison service.
The problem is that a lot of outside factors interfere such as inmates being transferred from one prison to another or a course being oversubscribed etc etc.
Then you have the problem that you have inmates who take up course places just as something to do or more importantly to get privileges though prison service staff can quite often spot them fairly quickly.
There are also jobs within prisons for inmates and they are also helped to get work placements outside prison when at cat d and possibly at cat c:.
As has been said it could be argued that early relase should be given as an incentive however inmates who really shouldnt get early release will simply play the system.
I think the system needs to go back to grassroots.
So Cat A: Lifers for those without possibility of release.
Cat B: Lifers with possibility of release and long term sentenced.
Cat: C: short term sentenced
Cat D: Open pre release good behaviour.
A: Inmates will have jobs and all normal modern facilities and will have reasonable contact with the outside world.
B: Harsher prison structure. Inmates will have to work and study and achieve set goals to be able to be allowed to be decatted to D for pre release.
C: Short terms Harshest regime. Inmates will do unpaid work to pay back community and will be expected to study/train. Sentences will always be long enough to finish their study course.
D: Pre release. Inmates will be expected and assisted to get a job outside prison and will also be given training in a skill etc.
Inmates with drug issues will be assisted to get off drugs. When any inmate is released there would be proper throughcare with a walk in centre at each prison should they have any issues after release where they can get housing/employment drug etc assistance.
If needs be supplying them with accommodation at an open or even closed prison for a few nights should they need it and the space be available.
There are a variety of problems.
Firstly as it stands prison is not a disincentive to be involved in criminal activity.
Secondly there is very little in the way of throughcare for prisoners who wish to reform.
Now throughcare being support once they have left prison to stay on the right track and become useful member of society.
So as 10p says change needs to be all over. Most prisoners are offered learning and skills training by the prison service.
The problem is that a lot of outside factors interfere such as inmates being transferred from one prison to another or a course being oversubscribed etc etc.
Then you have the problem that you have inmates who take up course places just as something to do or more importantly to get privileges though prison service staff can quite often spot them fairly quickly.
There are also jobs within prisons for inmates and they are also helped to get work placements outside prison when at cat d and possibly at cat c:.
As has been said it could be argued that early relase should be given as an incentive however inmates who really shouldnt get early release will simply play the system.
I think the system needs to go back to grassroots.
So Cat A: Lifers for those without possibility of release.
Cat B: Lifers with possibility of release and long term sentenced.
Cat: C: short term sentenced
Cat D: Open pre release good behaviour.
A: Inmates will have jobs and all normal modern facilities and will have reasonable contact with the outside world.
B: Harsher prison structure. Inmates will have to work and study and achieve set goals to be able to be allowed to be decatted to D for pre release.
C: Short terms Harshest regime. Inmates will do unpaid work to pay back community and will be expected to study/train. Sentences will always be long enough to finish their study course.
D: Pre release. Inmates will be expected and assisted to get a job outside prison and will also be given training in a skill etc.
Inmates with drug issues will be assisted to get off drugs. When any inmate is released there would be proper throughcare with a walk in centre at each prison should they have any issues after release where they can get housing/employment drug etc assistance.
If needs be supplying them with accommodation at an open or even closed prison for a few nights should they need it and the space be available.
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