Another American shooting incident.

[Victor McDade]

Eric Mc said:

thinfourth2 said:

Eric Mc said:

thinfourth2 said:

But everyone feels our version of democracy utterly ignores voters beyond a once every 5 year cross on a piece of paper.

If the fkers listened to us instead of chasing headlines and vote then we might not want to shoot the fkers

So shooting them will change things for the better?

It's people like you that REALLY worry me.

If it gets them to stop thinking they are untouchable it might work.

Peaceful protest and angry letter writing does fk all in the UK.

The list of things that brings change in the UK is getting bloody short.

Shooting one of them will bring about nothing but more of us and them

if we shot the lot of them might bring change

Well, if that is your opinion I think you need some mental help.

You can't blame people for thinking along such lines when the democratic process to bring elected officials to account has broken down.

Look at Tony Bliar, apart from the circus which is the 'Iraq Enquiry' he will never really have to answer for his conduct during the Iraq war. The same goes for Brown, the man who did so much damage to this country is free now to become a part time MP and never have to face questions about his reign.

Then we had the 'expenses' scandal. 'Oops sorry guys, yes we did steal from our employers but we're going to pay it back now that we're caught so walk along now'.......what other profession would this work in?

I still wouldn't promote shooting the bds but I can understand why some would.

The system is failing the electorate and there is fk all we do about it as our MPs and Lords have closed ranks.

[ATG]

thinfourth2 said:

But everyone feels our version of democracy utterly ignores voters beyond a once every 5 year cross on a piece of paper.

If the fkers listened to us instead of chasing headlines and vote then we might not want to shoot the fkers

You are far from alone in saying things like this, but it is still fundamentally pretty daft.

Politicians don't ignore the public. They do the exact opposite.

They have to bend over backwards to try to keep the public sweet. They are fixated on how they get reported in the media from minute to minute. And that is a real problem because the public are collectively fking stupid. If you want short term, knee jerk, prejudiced, unconsidered opinions ... just ask the general public for a reaction to the latest event. Trying to keep public opinion on side condemns politicians to have to try to pander to the public's daft opinions. Policy becomes a huge juggling act - an impossible attempt to balance sensible policy and the whims of the general public. The very, very last thing we need is for politicians to be held accountable to the public any more frequently, let alone allowing public opinion to drive policy.

Our system is designed so that having won a mandate, politicians are then given a reasonably free hand to run the country for a few years. We get to judge them on their results at the end of that period of time. That isn't a flaw in our system ... it's the key bleeding, central idea. The system is designed to protect the country from the whims of the public.

[Wadeski]

ATG said:

thinfourth2 said:

But everyone feels our version of democracy utterly ignores voters beyond a once every 5 year cross on a piece of paper.

If the fkers listened to us instead of chasing headlines and vote then we might not want to shoot the fkers

You are far from alone in saying things like this, but it is still fundamentally pretty daft.

Politicians don't ignore the public. They do the exact opposite.

They have to bend over backwards to try to keep the public sweet. They are fixated on how they get reported in the media from minute to minute. And that is a real problem because the public are collectively fking stupid. If you want short term, knee jerk, prejudiced, unconsidered opinions ... just ask the general public for a reaction to the latest event. Trying to keep public opinion on side condemns politicians to have to try to pander to the public's daft opinions. Policy becomes a huge juggling act - an impossible attempt to balance sensible policy and the whims of the general public. The very, very last thing we need is for politicians to be held accountable to the public any more frequently, let alone allowing public opinion to drive policy.

Our system is designed so that having won a mandate, politicians are then given a reasonably free hand to run the country for a few years. We get to judge them on their results at the end of that period of time. That isn't a flaw in our system ... it's the key bleeding, central idea. The system is designed to protect the country from the whims of the public.

indeed. look at California's experiment with direct democracy, i.e. referenda on policy at the same time as elections.

unsurprisingly, the public voted for fewer taxes and more services every single time, and helped bankrupt the state. because the public will put short sighted self interest above all else.

[thinfourth2]

ATG said:

thinfourth2 said:

But everyone feels our version of democracy utterly ignores voters beyond a once every 5 year cross on a piece of paper.

If the fkers listened to us instead of chasing headlines and vote then we might not want to shoot the fkers

You are far from alone in saying things like this, but it is still fundamentally pretty daft.

Politicians don't ignore the public. They do the exact opposite.

They have to bend over backwards to try to keep the public sweet. They are fixated on how they get reported in the media from minute to minute. And that is a real problem because the public are collectively fking stupid. If you want short term, knee jerk, prejudiced, unconsidered opinions ... just ask the general public for a reaction to the latest event. Trying to keep public opinion on side condemns politicians to have to try to pander to the public's daft opinions. Policy becomes a huge juggling act - an impossible attempt to balance sensible policy and the whims of the general public. The very, very last thing we need is for politicians to be held accountable to the public any more frequently, let alone allowing public opinion to drive policy.

Our system is designed so that having won a mandate, politicians are then given a reasonably free hand to run the country for a few years. We get to judge them on their results at the end of that period of time. That isn't a flaw in our system ... it's the key bleeding, central idea. The system is designed to protect the country from the whims of the public.

I find it hard to disagree with you.

I think we would be better off with zero say in how things are run or complete say in how things are run instead of this half arsed affair

Or we could just shoot them.

I'm still leaning towards shooting

[Victor McDade]

Wadeski said:

. because the public will put short sighted self interest above all else.

No different to the majority of our politicians then. I agree that having countless referenda doesn't work but some sort of 'right to recall' as well as having US style 'primaries' for each constituency would be a good step forward. Add to that cutting down our MPs from 650 to say 450 would be a great start in delivering to the public a more accountable and less wasteful system (and without having to shoot anybody in the process).

[thinfourth2]

Victor McDade said:

Wadeski said:

. because the public will put short sighted self interest above all else.

No different to the majority of our politicians then. I agree that having countless referenda doesn't work but some sort of 'right to recall' as well as having US style 'primaries' for each constituency would be a good step forward. Add to that cutting down our MPs from 650 to say 450 would be a great start in delivering to the public a more accountable and less wasteful system

I always fancied something similar to jury duty where we select our MPs at random instead of choosing them on their back stabbing and smiling ability

Victor McDade said:

(and without having to shoot anybody in the process).

Spoilsport

[fido]

Pesty said:

Also," he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven't seen him in person since '07 in a sign language class" and "As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy."

mention of the 2012 prophecy is interesting

So is Hendrix?! I mean i love Hendrix stuff but it's never made me want to engage in violent acts .. ok, well maybe when the last shower started giving out Free Laptops to Chavs, and then i thought how good it would be to have crazy gun laws .. just kidding.

[The Hypno-Toad]

Fox News have now reported that he had help and have put up a picture of a man between 40-50 who the authorites are looking for.

Which makes it a conspiracy.

The plot thickens..

[Pesty]

Strawman said:

Muntu said:

He appears to be a Leftie. Favourite video is the burning of a US flag on his youtube account.

An astonishing view, the world's media have him down as a right wing crackpot and are blaming the rhetoric Palin has been spouting as a trigger point for the attack.

Its looks to me the palin bashing is just the left shamelessly exploiting this for their own ends.

The guy was a mental case left or right politics does not matter.

[Victor McDade]

Do these 'left' and 'right' labels even mean anything in todays world?

Most of us form an opinion and agree with a variety of political, economic and social policies from both sides of the spectrum.

[elster]

968 said:

Muntu said:

Wadeski said:

the American right has got wayyyyyy to cozy with the crazies. I'm not surprised this has happened, sadly.

He appears to be a Leftie. Favourite video is the burning of a US flag on his youtube account.

How do you know what his political persuasions are?

One of his favourite books on facebook was listed as mein Kampf.

[968]

elster said:

968 said:

Muntu said:

Wadeski said:

the American right has got wayyyyyy to cozy with the crazies. I'm not surprised this has happened, sadly.

He appears to be a Leftie. Favourite video is the burning of a US flag on his youtube account.

How do you know what his political persuasions are?

One of his favourite books on facebook was listed as mein Kampf.

And the other the communist manifesto. So both ends of the political spectrum represented. It's irrelevant, however, other than for fanboys on both sides to try and shamelessly gain some higher ground over their opposite number at the expense of this poor woman and the 6 dead around her including a child. The most relevant issue that we can be certain of with this chap is that he is mentally ill and I would suggest anyone advocating or sympathising with the attempted murder of any politician may have a problem too.

[jeff m]

Have you noticed no actual Americans have joined this thread...
As soon as there is a Liberal agenda up pop a few American experts shouting everybody down, but stating crap themselvles.
Where someone can bring up an assault weapon as the firearm used amazes me. It was known immeadiatly it was a handgun.
The use of the phrase "targeting people" has been inserted by the establishment into US English, and is heard almost everyday in the news.
It isn't Palin speak. It's common.

It appears, or we are being told, that he belongs to a group called Renaisance. Anti this, anti that...
That are why they are looking for a white male who could possibly be an accomplice, member of same group etc.

Assume everyone is aware people in Arizona from the top to bottom are not particularly happy with either party with the way that illegal immigration is being condoned/ignored/almost encouraged. (in their opinion)

It is not racist to be anti immigration, funding of services in the States is done at a very local level. It becomes very noticable, very quickly, when those resouces are stretched. A school that you pay for suddenly has twice as many pupils as it did last year. Twice as much trash, twice as much crime.

I don't know anything about this Congresswomen but I am sure she could not have won a primary in Arizona w/o addressing the immig problem and the financial strain it puts on the State. She probably made a few promises, they all do. Once she got elected it was business as usual. No suprise to most. But no less annoying if you happen to live in Arizona.

Edited by jeff m on Sunday 9th January 15:00

[Mojocvh]

968 said:

elster said:

968 said:

Muntu said:

Wadeski said:

the American right has got wayyyyyy to cozy with the crazies. I'm not surprised this has happened, sadly.

He appears to be a Leftie. Favourite video is the burning of a US flag on his youtube account.

How do you know what his political persuasions are?

One of his favourite books on facebook was listed as mein Kampf.

And the other the communist manifesto. So both ends of the political spectrum represented. It's irrelevant, however, other than for fanboys on both sides to try and shamelessly gain some higher ground over their opposite number at the expense of this poor woman and the 6 dead around her including a child. The most relevant issue that we can be certain of with this chap is that he is mentally ill and I would suggest anyone advocating or sympathising with the attempted murder of any politician may have a problem too.

Wow, what's it like in utopia, 968?

[968]

Mojocvh said:

968 said:

elster said:

968 said:

Muntu said:

Wadeski said:

the American right has got wayyyyyy to cozy with the crazies. I'm not surprised this has happened, sadly.

He appears to be a Leftie. Favourite video is the burning of a US flag on his youtube account.

How do you know what his political persuasions are?

One of his favourite books on facebook was listed as mein Kampf.

And the other the communist manifesto. So both ends of the political spectrum represented. It's irrelevant, however, other than for fanboys on both sides to try and shamelessly gain some higher ground over their opposite number at the expense of this poor woman and the 6 dead around her including a child. The most relevant issue that we can be certain of with this chap is that he is mentally ill and I would suggest anyone advocating or sympathising with the attempted murder of any politician may have a problem too.

Wow, what's it like in utopia, 968?

You think it's ok to sympathise with an attempted murder?

edited for accuracy

Edited by 968 on Sunday 9th January 14:55

[RDMcG]

Personally i think second amendment rights have little to do with this whole event. Although I live in Canada which has a fraction of the violence per capita and has gun controls, I recognize that this is not what Americans want. Fair enough.

However, the more disturbing thing is the use of militaristic and violent terms in the now-poisonous state of US politics. Targets,talk of "eliminating" opponents and so on are toxic in a big country...it seems to legitimize people taking the law into their own hands. Furthermore, the rush to take down the websites immediately after the killings hows the hypocrisy of those who authorized them. Its too early to say this was a lone crazy...we will have to see if there was a a second person involved.

The middle is gone in the US. Now its just screaming heads on TV, foaming at the mouth in anger, shouting down opponents, coming up with ever more creative emotive slogans to inflame the debate and the US turns ever inwards, ignoring the massive changes in the world as Asia rises. Its very distressing. I am married to an American and have huge admiration for the country, and have seen far more of it than most Americans.

There is absolutely no respect for opposing views. Liberals and conservatives do not see each other as fellow Americans, but as devils bent on destroying the country.....and if these views continue to erode any civility, they will succeed, sadly.

If any good whatsoever comes out of this, it might be to moderate the ugly rhetoric, and for people to try listening instead of screaming. ( Just my 2c Canadian(now at par) worth..........

[968]

RDMcG said:

Personally i think second amendment rights have little to do with this whole event. Although I live in Canada which has a fraction of the violence per capita and has gun controls, I recognize that this is not what Americans want. Fair enough.

However, the more disturbing thing is the use of militaristic and violent terms in the now-poisonous state of US politics. Targets,talk of "eliminating" opponents and so on are toxic in a big country...it seems to legitimize people taking the law into their own hands. Furthermore, the rush to take down the websites immediately after the killings hows the hypocrisy of those who authorized them. Its too early to say this was a lone crazy...we will have to see if there was a a second person involved.

The middle is gone in the US. Now its just screaming heads on TV, foaming at the mouth in anger, shouting down opponents, coming up with ever more creative emotive slogans to inflame the debate and the US turns ever inwards, ignoring the massive changes in the world as Asia rises. Its very distressing. I am married to an American and have huge admiration for the country, and have seen far more of it than most Americans.

There is absolutely no respect for opposing views. Liberals and conservatives do not see each other as fellow Americans, but as devils bent on destroying the country.....and if these views continue to erode any civility, they will succeed, sadly.

If any good whatsoever comes out of this, it might be to moderate the ugly rhetoric, and for people to try listening instead of screaming. ( Just my 2c Canadian(now at par) worth..........

Well said.

[maddog993]

Bingone said:

.........Another sad day for the world's largest democracy.

Call me pedantic and it's OT, but the world's largest Democracy is India

[ErnestM]

maddog993 said:

Bingone said:

.........Another sad day for the world's largest democracy.

Call me pedantic and it's OT, but the world's largest Democracy is India

...and the United States is a Federal Republic, not a Democracy.

I don't have enough information, yet, to offer an opinion about the matter other than to say the perpetrator appears to be quite mentally unstable. Will offer a better opinion when more details are available.

[968]

ErnestM said:

maddog993 said:

Bingone said:

.........Another sad day for the world's largest democracy.

Call me pedantic and it's OT, but the world's largest Democracy is India

...and the United States is a Federal Republic, not a Democracy.

I don't have enough information, yet, to offer an opinion about the matter other than to say the perpetrator appears to be quite mentally unstable. Will offer a better opinion when more details are available.

Again, well said!