Estate where only one person has a job. Enjoy
Discussion
Quite an interesting thread with some very good points reaffirming my faith in the Pistonheads Massive and its ability to think with clarity 
Having grown up in an ex-mining town in the north and regularly returning there to visit the rents I can see both sides of this. The town never really recovered from the mines closing 25-30 years ago. Its got a fair few small businesses but you'd not call it boom town.
People from there fall into 3 categories from my experience:
There are those who don't want to work and are happy living off benefits. These are the typical work-shy layabouts who are often supplementing their benefits with a healthy amount of illegal activities. These are the sort who will only take a job if forced to by threatening to cut their benefits and as soon as possible will manage to be made unemployed so they can return to their wallowing lifestyles.
Then you have some like a few of my friends who as someone describes kindly as 'salt of the earth'. Decent and hard working but not the quickest and who don't have any qualifications or trades to fall back on. These people seem to be generally sh!t on by the current system. One friend of mine has been in and out of many jobs in the last 15 years, never his own fault, usually its either seasonal temp work or redundancies. I've tried to convince him to get some sort of trade but the costs of getting those qualifications if you're not straight out of school (i.e. paid for) on the sort of wages he has to play with are very tough. He is struggling just to pay for his driving lessons. He could move somewhere and get another job but without any sort of capital behind him he can't move to london or the SE for a job that *might* be there, he'd have nowhere to live and a lot of difficulty in getting a free house/flat. He did it a few times and had work for 6months at a time but it didn't make economic sense after he had to pay for board etc at higher living costs (compare rent in the NE to that in central London or Edinburgh). In addition he'd be abandoning his only support network of friends and family. And to top it off a lot of the people he knows will be enjoying a life of ease courtesy of the state, how long do you think someone could resist that temptation before giving it a go? In summary people like this are stuck in a rut and unless there is a job in their part of the world which isn't going to be here today gone tomorrow they'll always be sh!t on or turn into a dole-walla.
Then there is the third type which is the group I count myself in. I was wise to the state of the place even when at school and was determined to get out. So I worked had and left for uni, got myself a job somewhere else and have been comfortable since (excepting redundancy last year which I've recovered from). A lot of the more skilled/qualified people I knew from there don't live there any more and had done similar to me. Most are now in the south doing reasonably paid steady jobs.
Obviously the 3rd group generally take care of themselves. Its the other 2 that need some, using the word loosely, assistance.
Those in the 1st group really should just be put down or at least have benefits curbed to the point that it really isn't attractive. Their occasional illegality would soon stop providing all the fun money they need and they'd either have to become more regular (and probably then get caught) or get off their backsides and do some real work.
The 2nd group is the challenge as they're usually unable/unwilling to retrain to a higher skill level and hunt jobs in a wider search as if they were going to I'm sure they would have by now. Yet they're otherwise perfectly capable of producing a lot of good work if encouraged to do so. If someone can genuinely provide those people with sustainable and profitable work they would be some sort of modern day messiah.
First thought is they need work and the economy need them to be working to a net gain to the economy rather than a net drain. To bring back manufacturing to the UK seems the obvious answer but as pointed out how to do that without making things worse. Cheap playstations/tvs/iphones are now a way of life and it appears to get manufacturing back into the UK will mean a rise in living costs or a reduction in unskilled wages. Both would have the same effect of making the poor people poorer. However if they haven't got any money coming in vs having to spend more of the money they now have on iphones is that really a trade off in the wider scheme of things? A lot of people are quite proud if they can pay their own way.
Also a lot of cars are still made in the UK even if they aren't UK car companies and are only part assembled here, so its clearly possible to make something here and for profit. So how much more would a playstation made in the UK really cost vs one made in china by the time its on sale in the UK either online or on a shop shelf? I'm guessing it wouldn't be as much as people think. 20%? 10%? 5%? Knowing how much high tech electronics production is automated I can't see it being directly proportional to labour rates.
But then you think not *that* many people are involved in high tech manufacturing. I used to work for a company that employed more highly skilled staff than unskilled probably by a factor of 2. Something like 600+ support staff and only 300ish 'unskilled'. So high tech manufacturing isn't a very good answer anyway. Similarly neither is finance of any sort. Its too high skilled so it can't employ unskilled people, the only benefit to unskilled people is trickle down and fancy new gap insurance on the latest iAndroid 16 mobile phones.
So I think its more a case of identifying which industries can provide large amounts of unskilled work yet provide reasonable wages?
Having grown up in an ex-mining town in the north and regularly returning there to visit the rents I can see both sides of this. The town never really recovered from the mines closing 25-30 years ago. Its got a fair few small businesses but you'd not call it boom town.
People from there fall into 3 categories from my experience:
There are those who don't want to work and are happy living off benefits. These are the typical work-shy layabouts who are often supplementing their benefits with a healthy amount of illegal activities. These are the sort who will only take a job if forced to by threatening to cut their benefits and as soon as possible will manage to be made unemployed so they can return to their wallowing lifestyles.
Then you have some like a few of my friends who as someone describes kindly as 'salt of the earth'. Decent and hard working but not the quickest and who don't have any qualifications or trades to fall back on. These people seem to be generally sh!t on by the current system. One friend of mine has been in and out of many jobs in the last 15 years, never his own fault, usually its either seasonal temp work or redundancies. I've tried to convince him to get some sort of trade but the costs of getting those qualifications if you're not straight out of school (i.e. paid for) on the sort of wages he has to play with are very tough. He is struggling just to pay for his driving lessons. He could move somewhere and get another job but without any sort of capital behind him he can't move to london or the SE for a job that *might* be there, he'd have nowhere to live and a lot of difficulty in getting a free house/flat. He did it a few times and had work for 6months at a time but it didn't make economic sense after he had to pay for board etc at higher living costs (compare rent in the NE to that in central London or Edinburgh). In addition he'd be abandoning his only support network of friends and family. And to top it off a lot of the people he knows will be enjoying a life of ease courtesy of the state, how long do you think someone could resist that temptation before giving it a go? In summary people like this are stuck in a rut and unless there is a job in their part of the world which isn't going to be here today gone tomorrow they'll always be sh!t on or turn into a dole-walla.
Then there is the third type which is the group I count myself in. I was wise to the state of the place even when at school and was determined to get out. So I worked had and left for uni, got myself a job somewhere else and have been comfortable since (excepting redundancy last year which I've recovered from). A lot of the more skilled/qualified people I knew from there don't live there any more and had done similar to me. Most are now in the south doing reasonably paid steady jobs.
Obviously the 3rd group generally take care of themselves. Its the other 2 that need some, using the word loosely, assistance.
Those in the 1st group really should just be put down or at least have benefits curbed to the point that it really isn't attractive. Their occasional illegality would soon stop providing all the fun money they need and they'd either have to become more regular (and probably then get caught) or get off their backsides and do some real work.
The 2nd group is the challenge as they're usually unable/unwilling to retrain to a higher skill level and hunt jobs in a wider search as if they were going to I'm sure they would have by now. Yet they're otherwise perfectly capable of producing a lot of good work if encouraged to do so. If someone can genuinely provide those people with sustainable and profitable work they would be some sort of modern day messiah.
First thought is they need work and the economy need them to be working to a net gain to the economy rather than a net drain. To bring back manufacturing to the UK seems the obvious answer but as pointed out how to do that without making things worse. Cheap playstations/tvs/iphones are now a way of life and it appears to get manufacturing back into the UK will mean a rise in living costs or a reduction in unskilled wages. Both would have the same effect of making the poor people poorer. However if they haven't got any money coming in vs having to spend more of the money they now have on iphones is that really a trade off in the wider scheme of things? A lot of people are quite proud if they can pay their own way.
Also a lot of cars are still made in the UK even if they aren't UK car companies and are only part assembled here, so its clearly possible to make something here and for profit. So how much more would a playstation made in the UK really cost vs one made in china by the time its on sale in the UK either online or on a shop shelf? I'm guessing it wouldn't be as much as people think. 20%? 10%? 5%? Knowing how much high tech electronics production is automated I can't see it being directly proportional to labour rates.
But then you think not *that* many people are involved in high tech manufacturing. I used to work for a company that employed more highly skilled staff than unskilled probably by a factor of 2. Something like 600+ support staff and only 300ish 'unskilled'. So high tech manufacturing isn't a very good answer anyway. Similarly neither is finance of any sort. Its too high skilled so it can't employ unskilled people, the only benefit to unskilled people is trickle down and fancy new gap insurance on the latest iAndroid 16 mobile phones.
So I think its more a case of identifying which industries can provide large amounts of unskilled work yet provide reasonable wages?
renrut said:
Quite an interesting thread with some very good points reaffirming my faith in the Pistonheads Massive and its ability to think with clarity
Having grown up in an ex-mining town in the north and regularly returning there to visit the rents I can see both sides of this. The town never really recovered from the mines closing 25-30 years ago. Its got a fair few small businesses but you'd not call it boom town.
People from there fall into 3 categories from my experience:
There are those who don't want to work and are happy living off benefits...
Then you have some like a few of my friends who as someone describes kindly as 'salt of the earth'. Decent and hard working but not the quickest and who don't have any qualifications or trades to fall back on...
I had lengthy conversations a few years back with a young employee. He was living, at the time, with his wife and children on a former council estate. He worked and was proud to pay his own way (as far as his education and skills enabled) but said it was very difficult sometimes to motivate himself (and enforce the right behaviour on his kids) when neighbours barely rose before the Kyle show and these families were up and about all hours - having BBQs in the back yards until late into the night in the summer - and generally pouring scorn on anyone silly enough to graft for their money.Having grown up in an ex-mining town in the north and regularly returning there to visit the rents I can see both sides of this. The town never really recovered from the mines closing 25-30 years ago. Its got a fair few small businesses but you'd not call it boom town.
People from there fall into 3 categories from my experience:
There are those who don't want to work and are happy living off benefits...
Then you have some like a few of my friends who as someone describes kindly as 'salt of the earth'. Decent and hard working but not the quickest and who don't have any qualifications or trades to fall back on...
The benefit culture is engrained and those who won't work are often a very close and constant burden to those who do.
Kermit power said:
Pesty said:
yeah we know that buts its a slightly different argument to what Cazzer is talking about I belive. You won't hear me dissagreeing about how the state perpetuates this problem with benefits.
What if the man in your example could do a tough job like work in a foundry that maybe does not need a huge amount of quals? he could maybe earn £15 an hour but the foundries are not there any more they are in India and China.
These jobs down the pit or in the steel mill have all but gone for various reasons.
Those jobs have by and large gone for one single reason. Your man in Yorkshire expects to earn £15 an hour in his foundry, whereas his counterpart in India or China expects to earn £15 a day if he's very lucky.What if the man in your example could do a tough job like work in a foundry that maybe does not need a huge amount of quals? he could maybe earn £15 an hour but the foundries are not there any more they are in India and China.
These jobs down the pit or in the steel mill have all but gone for various reasons.
Why do you suppose your man in Yorkshire doesn't have a foundry to work in?
Don't blame the government. Blame previous generations of workers and unions who demanded princely wages for peasant jobs.
Not sure who'll pay for all the benefit scroungers and council workers though.
Just a thought.
Here's a thought...
1. Figure out the average hourly cost of keeping someone on benefits, including absolutely all benefits.
2. Reduce the benefits of anyone who could work but doesn't by 75% after the first 6 months.
3. Take half of what is currently spent on benefits and use it to offer employers taking people off long term unemployment a shared salary programme. The employer pays £2 an hour, and the government makes it up to what the worker would've earned on benefits today.
1. Figure out the average hourly cost of keeping someone on benefits, including absolutely all benefits.
2. Reduce the benefits of anyone who could work but doesn't by 75% after the first 6 months.
3. Take half of what is currently spent on benefits and use it to offer employers taking people off long term unemployment a shared salary programme. The employer pays £2 an hour, and the government makes it up to what the worker would've earned on benefits today.
The biggest problem is that every single one of us could stop work at 5pm today, live off our savings for a while if we had some, once they had dried up be entitled to benefits. This benefit entitlement would mean that the whole country could avoid paying tax but the government would need to pay us all to live, I wonder how long it would take them to turn the drip off then.
IMO after your first month on benefits you must prove you are doing something useful in society to get any support at all, support which will diminish every 3 months over an 18 month period. After which if you haven't found work you must find some for a minimum 6 months to become eligible for more handouts. Your national insurance number will be linked with that of your parents/children and benefits may be adjusted down over if you are from a family that has contributed less than average to society. So the recent graduate of working parents will be more likely to find support than the 21 year old mum of 3 whose parents drink special brew and white cider all day long.
IMO after your first month on benefits you must prove you are doing something useful in society to get any support at all, support which will diminish every 3 months over an 18 month period. After which if you haven't found work you must find some for a minimum 6 months to become eligible for more handouts. Your national insurance number will be linked with that of your parents/children and benefits may be adjusted down over if you are from a family that has contributed less than average to society. So the recent graduate of working parents will be more likely to find support than the 21 year old mum of 3 whose parents drink special brew and white cider all day long.
Kermit power said:
Here's a thought...
Here's another;1. Get rid of the ludicrous minimum wage legislation which comprehensively prices the very least able and skilled workers out of the employment market.
2. Stop taxing people who are on the minimum wage.
3. Reduce benefits for those who can work but don;t after the first 6 months.
Digga said:
Kermit power said:
Here's a thought...
Here's another;1. Get rid of the ludicrous minimum wage legislation which comprehensively prices the very least able and skilled workers out of the employment market.
2. Stop taxing people who are on the minimum wage.
3. Reduce benefits for those who can work but don;t after the first 6 months.
Digga said:
Kermit power said:
Here's a thought...
Here's another;1. Get rid of the ludicrous minimum wage legislation which comprehensively prices the very least able and skilled workers out of the employment market.
2. Stop taxing people who are on the minimum wage.
3. Reduce benefits for those who can work but don;t after the first 6 months.
Kermit power said:
Digga said:
Kermit power said:
Here's a thought...
Here's another;1. Get rid of the ludicrous minimum wage legislation which comprehensively prices the very least able and skilled workers out of the employment market.
2. Stop taxing people who are on the minimum wage.
3. Reduce benefits for those who can work but don;t after the first 6 months.
southendpier said:
Kermit power said:
Pesty said:
yeah we know that buts its a slightly different argument to what Cazzer is talking about I belive. You won't hear me dissagreeing about how the state perpetuates this problem with benefits.
What if the man in your example could do a tough job like work in a foundry that maybe does not need a huge amount of quals? he could maybe earn £15 an hour but the foundries are not there any more they are in India and China.
These jobs down the pit or in the steel mill have all but gone for various reasons.
Those jobs have by and large gone for one single reason. Your man in Yorkshire expects to earn £15 an hour in his foundry, whereas his counterpart in India or China expects to earn £15 a day if he's very lucky.What if the man in your example could do a tough job like work in a foundry that maybe does not need a huge amount of quals? he could maybe earn £15 an hour but the foundries are not there any more they are in India and China.
These jobs down the pit or in the steel mill have all but gone for various reasons.
Why do you suppose your man in Yorkshire doesn't have a foundry to work in?
Don't blame the government. Blame previous generations of workers and unions who demanded princely wages for peasant jobs.
Not sure who'll pay for all the benefit scroungers and council workers though.
Just a thought.
cazzer said:
IainT said:
cazzer said:
So when it became cheaper to manufacture this stuff abroad thats exactly what they did. All the cotton spinning has gone, 200 mills, 500 people+ per mill. Platts went. Ferranti went in a share dealing fraud.
None of these, and countless other businesses, went because the workforce was bad, or workshy. They went, in general, because the business owners found brown people to exploit.
Most of the original industry went 40+ eyars ago yet still the locals continue to breed in an unsustainable manner.None of these, and countless other businesses, went because the workforce was bad, or workshy. They went, in general, because the business owners found brown people to exploit.
That's not capitalism, that's socialism.
I'd say the reloaction to find work would be a step an individual should consider before making the choice to be a social leech for life.
IainT said:
cazzer said:
IainT said:
cazzer said:
So when it became cheaper to manufacture this stuff abroad thats exactly what they did. All the cotton spinning has gone, 200 mills, 500 people+ per mill. Platts went. Ferranti went in a share dealing fraud.
None of these, and countless other businesses, went because the workforce was bad, or workshy. They went, in general, because the business owners found brown people to exploit.
Most of the original industry went 40+ eyars ago yet still the locals continue to breed in an unsustainable manner.None of these, and countless other businesses, went because the workforce was bad, or workshy. They went, in general, because the business owners found brown people to exploit.
That's not capitalism, that's socialism.
I'd say the reloaction to find work would be a step an individual should consider before making the choice to be a social leech for life.
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 12th January 14:09
SplatSpeed said:
People think shameless is made up
it isn't it is a documentary
I was told about a family yesterday who have a life so complex and screwed up that even the writers of every soap, and stuff like shameless wouldn't ever be able to come up with it. it isn't it is a documentary
In summary though it consists of almost 30 people who all demand at least 3 times the help from charity and the state per year than the average working family of 4 will in a decade.
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