Guy giving Bob Diamond a hard time on SKY now

[mattviatura]

fido said:

If you going to trot out the leftist 'let's cap their renumeration'

I'm not. Read my post.

fido said:

IMO the only people who can throw stones are net savers

As above.

I am however pointing out that I find the attitude of some on Pistonheads distasteful, a massive amount of suffering has been caused. Yes everyone in the system has in some way contributed, but there are people on here who don't seem to accept that the actions of the banking sector were irresponsible too and seem to seek to defend those actions by reference to 'banker bashing'.

For the third time now I'll state, I'm not anti-banker.

[cardigankid]

oyster said:

mattviatura said:

Why do some of those who defend bank bailouts on here see small businesses as any different to the banks, it's a genuine question? Is it simply down to the number of noughts on the end of the figures?

A big bank however will take down a lot of large and small businesses with it. That is a failure of the regulatory system, not the banks themselves.

What utter st. If deposits are guaranteed, the businesses are protected. If badly run banks are not allowed to fail, they end up on artificial life support, and we have a command economy, which has been conclusively demonstrated not to work.

No regulatory system works, they are all staffed by civil servants who couldn't regulate a piss up in Tadcaster. This was the fault of the people running the banks, and they have got off scot free. In a true free enterprise system, duff businesses go down and are replaced by more efficient ones. That is the opposite of what we have got.

Nor do we 'need' highly paid bankers, we need honest and diligent ones. If the system, which is now largely taxpayer funded, was transparent, we would se exactly what is going on. No wonder they are doing well now - they are holding the country to ransom.

[cardigankid]

Ozzie Osmond said:

fido said:

Yes, it has benefited from the systematic rescue attempted by central banks (and no one including Bob Diamond has said otherwise) but so have small businesses, estate agents, homeowners, footballers and basically everyone in the system by abnomally low interest rates!

Have you tried to leave school/university and find a job recently? Ain't none out there.

Have you tried being a "saver" recently? Negative real interest rates.

Have you tried selling cars or trucks recently? Few customers, ferocious competition, miniscule margin.

It is disingenuous to say that everyone has benefitted.

Of course everyone has not benefitted. Most of us have got a lot poorer - but sales of Rolls Royces has risen 70% - and that is within the UK. A small number of people have been allowed to make fortunes at the expense of the rest of us, with the politicians connivance.

And by the way, I AM anti banker. I would like to see their heads on poles. I'll say what I have said before - what has happened is criminal, and it is well on the way to happening again. Money is not created magically out of nothing, and these highly paid people getting their huge bonusses are not magicians, they are more likely thieves. I do not think that we should be grateful to them just because they condescend to spend their ill gotten gains in the UK. If we saw how they work in their shady little environment, I suspect that we would want to hang them.

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 11:30

[fido]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Have you tried to leave school/university and find a job recently? Ain't none out there.

Yes there are. It's tough out there, but there are jobs. My cousin left university in 2008 with a music degree. She couldn't find a job so she did some unpaid work in the music industry to get experience. Still no joy, so she studied languages abroad. Came back start of last year and eventually got a job in Marketing after working unpaid during a trial period. It's tough but so were the early 90s - remember joining a 1km queue for jobs at the local shopping centre - funnily enough i never see that nowadays, yet teenagers can afford to get up at 11am in the morning run around new'ish boxes?

Ozzie Osmond said:

Have you tried being a "saver" recently? Negative real interest rates.

Yes I have tried to save, well i have no choice because i am a net saver, so my savings are being eroded to subsidise the feckless. Precisely my point.

Ozzie Osmond said:

It is disingenuous to say that everyone has benefitted.

It's a relative statement. If interest rates were set to match inflation (as they are supposed to) then many businesses and homeowners would be fubar'd. I suppose this is going to happen anyway .. but if you're knee-deep in sh8t because someone is holding you up, then you have benefited from being up to your neck in sh8t.

Edited by fido on Wednesday 12th January 11:33

[munky]

mattviatura said:

oyster said:

A small business failing doesn't bring the economy to its knees. A big company likewise.
A big bank however will take down a lot of large and small businesses with it.

That is a failure of the regulatory system, not the banks themselves.

So it is down to the noughts.

I agree with your point about the failure to regulate.

The attitude of some of those who defend the banks on here is somewhat distasteful however. It was a disaster and a little humility wouldn't go amiss.

I'll say again I'm not anti-banker.

It's not about noughts, it's about the unique problem of contagion and systemic risk in banking that no-one yet has been able to solve. If Vodafone goes under, it doesn't drag down other telcos with it. If a large bank fails, it is quite possible that this causes others to fail both through panic and bank runs (as per the last financial crisis in the 1920s, which is what prompted the idea of a central bank becoming the 'lender of last resort'), and of all banks being interlinked via interbank lending and the more modern phenomenon of OTC derivative trading.
The latter problem would have been much less had the government not rubber stamped every bank merger that came along, thus allowing banks to get too big to fail, and had regulators done more to reduce counterparty risk by pushing derivatives onto clearing houses and exchanges (as one example, there are other ways)

Well, it's almost unique. It is said that in the US, the big carmakers got bailed out partly because of the risk to the supply chain. With a small number of very large carmakers, their suppliers can be wiped out by the failure of just one, which in turn creates large problems for the others.

Perhaps Northern Rock should have been allowed to fail - it wasn't big enough to be a systemic risk but there was still contagion as depositors wondered who was next, and rushed to remove cash from Alliance & Leicester and Bradford & Bingley. However it suited the Labour government to bail out Northern Rock and Royal Bank of Scotland and Halifax Bank of Scotland because that's where their voters are, in addition to the risk that panic spreads and the ensuing bank runs bring down banks that were actually fine.

[steve singh]

cardigankid said:

Alfa numeric said:

Why? Free banking, free credit cards, even free overdrafts if you don't exceed the agreed limit

Banking is only free if you keep a credit balance in your account and then you get paid zero or near zero interest, which with inflation is effectively a 4% annual charge just for holding your money. Even an IFA would think that was good. No overdraft is free - they come with charges including arrangement fees and hefty real interest rates, if you are 'fortunate' enough to get one at all, which many find impossible. You might get a credit card, many don't, other than those in financial difficulty who are offered them at interest rates up to 60%, which ought to be illegal but isn't. If you pay in or out a cheque the bank will sit on your money for 6 working days - they all do that. Strange wouldn't you say?

Even those 'free' accounts are getting hard to come by. Business Bank Accounts are much worse, and we are now back to a situation where you cannot get a business loan, even with a perfect credit record, unless you can prove in detail that you don't need it. I know, I've tried.

The Australian dollar is riding high, I would much sooner have my money in Aus Dollars than Sterling. The UK can only maintain the current 'recovery' by QE and holding down the value of Sterling.

And, by the way, next time you are in a branch, ask them about their pension, healthcare and home insurance plans. That's how to get really done over. How many people out there have contributed to private pension schemes which are now all but worthless?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 10:30

It seems to me you're not just anti-banking but anti-capitalist - you resent an organisation providing a service at a cost which generates profit.

Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 12th January 11:31

[cardigankid]

steve singh said:

It seems to me you're not anti-banking but anti-capitalist - you resent an organisation providing a service at a cost which generates profit.

There is nothing capitalist about a cartel, which the banks are, and one which is artificially funded by the taxpayer, who is not allowed to see what they are doing. This is more like Soviet Russia only the oligarchs are the guys running the Banks. It is a pathetic joke. In a fair society they would all be charged with fraud. As for our Tory politicians they are all in it up to their corrupt pig like necks. As Private Eye misquoted David Cameron 'Some of my best friends aren't bankers'. This lot are never going to sort themselves out.

Anyway I believe that the entire system is now so discredited that serious civil unrest is a matter of time. This isn't the old Great Britain and why should any of us owe any loyalty to a fraudulent conspiracy. There are a lot of people out there who have no stake in this country any more so why should we not smash the existing establishment up in an effort to obtain something better and fairer?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 11:43

[Blue Cat]

I would be grateful if someone here could explain this, it looks like Barlcays are creating companies to off-load their bad debts onto.

It appears they create a new company with a loan and then they sell them their bad debts and as long as the new company pays back the loan, these bad debts are hidden and don't appear on Barclays balance sheet - if so, it's just building a house of cards for the future.

Is this correct or have I have I read this wrong?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/ba...

[Ozzie Osmond]

fido said:

Have you tried to leave school/university and find a job recently? Ain't none out there.

Yes there are. It's tough out there, but there are jobs. My cousin left university in 2008 with a music degree. She couldn't find a job so she did some unpaid work in the music industry to get experience. Still no joy, so she studied languages abroad. Came back start of last year and eventually got a job in Marketing after working unpaid during a trial period.

For goodness sake pull your head out of the sand. One person eventually finding a job doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

Unemployment HAS risen enormously. What's worse, it looks as though there may be a huge slice(couple of years output) of school leavers and graduates with nowhere to go. That problem is likely to be with us for a generation.

There are many, many more people in part-time work or very poor jobs which keep them out of the statistics but do not amount to a living wage.

"I'm alright Jack" is no answer.

[Alfa numeric]

cardigankid said:

Banking is only free if you keep a credit balance in your account

Do that then, it's not hard.

cardigankid said:

...and then you get paid zero or near zero interest, which with inflation is effectively a 4% annual charge just for holding your money.

Don't leave savings in your current account then! There are savings account out there that offer good rates, you just have to look. Although to be fair I do agree with your point in essence.

cardigankid said:

No overdraft is free - they come with charges including arrangement fees and hefty real interest rates, if you are 'fortunate' enough to get one at all, which many find impossible.

Fair point, but I've got one that's free and automatically renewed every year so it's not impossible to find. Even before I got this I was only charged a few quid per month for the few days I was overdrawn.

cardigankid said:

Even those 'free' accounts are getting hard to come by. Business Bank Accounts are much worse, and we are now back to a situation where you cannot get a business loan, even with a perfect credit record, unless you can prove in detail that you don't need it. I know, I've tried.

I'm sure it's not hard to find a private account that's fee free- I've opened a couple in the last 12 months. Businesses have always been screwed by banks though- I seem to remember Harry Metcalfe being turned down for a loan to start EVO in the mid 90's.

I still stand by my original point though- if you're an ordinary punter that likes to use a branch on a Saturday and not worry about which ATM you're using then our system isn't too bad.

[munky]

cardigankid said:

steve singh said:

It seems to me you're not anti-banking but anti-capitalist - you resent an organisation providing a service at a cost which generates profit.

There is nothing capitalist about a cartel, which the banks are, and one which is artificially funded by the taxpayer, who is not allowed to see what they are doing. This is more like Soviet Russia only the oligarchs are the guys running the Banks. It is a pathetic joke. In a fair society they would all be charged with fraud. As for our Tory politicians they are all in it up to their corrupt pig like necks. As Private Eye misquoted David Cameron 'Some of my best friends aren't bankers'. This lot are never going to sort themselves out.

Anyway I believe that the entire system is now so discredited that serious civil unrest is a matter of time. This isn't the old Great Britain and why should any of us owe any loyalty to a fraudulent conspiracy. There are a lot of people out there who have no stake in this country any more so why should we not smash the existing establishment up in an effort to obtain something better and fairer?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 11:43

Where's your proof of fraud and cartels or are these unsubstantiated allegations? Both are illegal and should be dealt with as such if it were true. What form did this fraud take? Did you report it to the police? Are you using some legal definition of fraud, or do you mean fraud to mean anything that doesn't fit your own perception of fairness? Just checking..
If any bank or banker commits fraud then I expect them to be dealt with like anyone else. Same with price fixing, which is what cartels do. When price fixing does occur, it is punished. proof: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/ind...

BA and Virgin were also found to be price fixing, therefore all airlines are a cartel, right?

[munky]

Blue Cat said:

I would be grateful if someone here could explain this, it looks like Barlcays are creating companies to off-load their bad debts onto.

It appears they create a new company with a loan and then they sell them their bad debts and as long as the new company pays back the loan, these bad debts are hidden and don't appear on Barclays balance sheet - if so, it's just building a house of cards for the future.

Is this correct or have I have I read this wrong?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/ba...

Without details (there aren't any) it could be anything. It could indeed be shady (as Enron was with its SPVs (different reason mind) although accounting laws were changed to clamp down on that), or it could simply be a hedge fund that was spun off from the bank - this happens frequently

Edited by munky on Wednesday 12th January 12:03

[Ozzie Osmond]

turbobloke said:

Any existing or potential employee has a duty to themselves to become and remain as employable as possible. There is no right to a job regardless of leftist ideological moonshine. Those with the most preparation, most effort, most flexibility (and so on) will get the jobs. If somebody isn't getting anywhere with job hunting, they should look to themselves not the outside world. They can influence their own chances whereas they can hardly influence the external context if at all.

Picture this:

100 people looking for a job. 1 job available. The star applicant gets the job.

What do you have in mind for the other 99?

[turbobloke]

Ozzie Osmond said:

turbobloke said:

Any existing or potential employee has a duty to themselves to become and remain as employable as possible. There is no right to a job regardless of leftist ideological moonshine. Those with the most preparation, most effort, most flexibility (and so on) will get the jobs. If somebody isn't getting anywhere with job hunting, they should look to themselves not the outside world. They can influence their own chances whereas they can hardly influence the external context if at all.

Picture this:

100 people looking for a job. 1 job available. The star applicant gets the job.

What do you have in mind for the other 99?

I'm getting problems here with posts not appearing then duplicating when reposted. If posts appear and vanish it's me trying to keep up with whatever is going on.

Back to the O/T. With the right skill set and attitude a lack of employment positions shouldn't stop income generation via enterprise. If nobody is around to 'give' somebody a job, then make a job. By the power of a back or the power of a mind, whatever. Can't see how there can possibly be such a glib expectation of a job, ideological make believe must clearly be effective propaganda. Where is there a right to anything except oxygen after birth? Expecting it all to happen around you (in general, not you personally!) isn't even useful or helpful in the good times.

Any vestige of a dependency culture doesn't help. Nobody of sound mind and body should allow themselves to become dependent on somebody else to such a degree. This may be a matter of attitude, also of political ideology, and we may have to agree to disagree, but I wasn't for changing my attitude to this when much younger and it aint changing now. There is far too much dependency around and a lot more proactive self-reliance is needed, which means taking advantage of all the free education and training on offer and then going the extra mile for the sake of self if nothing else.

Nothing personal but the attitude which sees any expectation of a job as being somehow 'automatically availale' is astonishing and anathema to me.

[cardigankid]

Blue Cat said:

I would be grateful if someone here could explain this, it looks like Barlcays are creating companies to off-load their bad debts onto.

It appears they create a new company with a loan and then they sell them their bad debts and as long as the new company pays back the loan, these bad debts are hidden and don't appear on Barclays balance sheet - if so, it's just building a house of cards for the future.

Is this correct or have I have I read this wrong?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/ba...

No you have got it right. This is how top bankers create these fantastic 'profits' for which we should all be so grateful and pay them their bonusses. They are such clever people after all and where would we be without them?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 12:27

[cardigankid]

munky said:

cardigankid said:

steve singh said:

It seems to me you're not anti-banking but anti-capitalist - you resent an organisation providing a service at a cost which generates profit.

There is nothing capitalist about a cartel, which the banks are, and one which is artificially funded by the taxpayer, who is not allowed to see what they are doing. This is more like Soviet Russia only the oligarchs are the guys running the Banks. It is a pathetic joke. In a fair society they would all be charged with fraud. As for our Tory politicians they are all in it up to their corrupt pig like necks. As Private Eye misquoted David Cameron 'Some of my best friends aren't bankers'. This lot are never going to sort themselves out.

Anyway I believe that the entire system is now so discredited that serious civil unrest is a matter of time. This isn't the old Great Britain and why should any of us owe any loyalty to a fraudulent conspiracy. There are a lot of people out there who have no stake in this country any more so why should we not smash the existing establishment up in an effort to obtain something better and fairer?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 11:43

Where's your proof of fraud and cartels or are these unsubstantiated allegations? Both are illegal and should be dealt with as such if it were true. What form did this fraud take? Did you report it to the police?

Now you are being disingenuous. As with most crime at this level, the trick is not to be caught. Do you seriously think that because they have not been prosecuted they are not up to it. Do you seriously think that the police are going to pay any attention? We all know I think that the police are low IQ thugs who do what the politicians tell them to. The crime as usual is being caught. Like MP's expenses, which went on for years and still goes on, it will all come out one day, perhaps after the next crash, and "lessons will have to be learned."

[Soovy]

cardigankid said:

munky said:

cardigankid said:

steve singh said:

It seems to me you're not anti-banking but anti-capitalist - you resent an organisation providing a service at a cost which generates profit.

There is nothing capitalist about a cartel, which the banks are, and one which is artificially funded by the taxpayer, who is not allowed to see what they are doing. This is more like Soviet Russia only the oligarchs are the guys running the Banks. It is a pathetic joke. In a fair society they would all be charged with fraud. As for our Tory politicians they are all in it up to their corrupt pig like necks. As Private Eye misquoted David Cameron 'Some of my best friends aren't bankers'. This lot are never going to sort themselves out.

Anyway I believe that the entire system is now so discredited that serious civil unrest is a matter of time. This isn't the old Great Britain and why should any of us owe any loyalty to a fraudulent conspiracy. There are a lot of people out there who have no stake in this country any more so why should we not smash the existing establishment up in an effort to obtain something better and fairer?

Edited by cardigankid on Wednesday 12th January 11:43

Where's your proof of fraud and cartels or are these unsubstantiated allegations? Both are illegal and should be dealt with as such if it were true. What form did this fraud take? Did you report it to the police?

Now you are being disingenuous. As with most crime at this level, the trick is not to be caught. Do you seriously think that because they have not been prosecuted they are not up to it. Do you seriously think that the police are going to pay any attention? We all know I think that the police are low IQ thugs who do what the politicians tell them to. The crime as usual is being caught. Like MP's expenses, which went on for years and still goes on, it will all come out one day, perhaps after the next crash, and "lessons will have to be learned."

Typical chip on shoulder nonsense.

Pathetic.

[Soovy]

Ozzie Osmond said:

turbobloke said:

Any existing or potential employee has a duty to themselves to become and remain as employable as possible. There is no right to a job regardless of leftist ideological moonshine. Those with the most preparation, most effort, most flexibility (and so on) will get the jobs. If somebody isn't getting anywhere with job hunting, they should look to themselves not the outside world. They can influence their own chances whereas they can hardly influence the external context if at all.

Picture this:

100 people looking for a job. 1 job available. The star applicant gets the job.

What do you have in mind for the other 99?

A less successful career, probably. Shucks. That's life.

[cardigankid]

And, Munky, if you want a classic example of how 'top financiers' extort money from the rest of us you should read Duncan Bannatyne's book which spells the methodology out in some detail.

[cardigankid]

Soovy said:

Typical chip on shoulder nonsense.

Pathetic.

Do you think they are going to let you in on it because you lick their arses?