Obama; France is the USA's Strongest Ally

[Kermit power]

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

The clue is in the name of the party - UKIP. The key bit is "UK".

Now, unless I've missed something, Scotland, is still part of the UK. And finding a new found appreciation of Scotland, I would prefer us English to be giving the Scots money, rather than France.

If you are seeing nothing in return from our money in Scotland, then I would suggest you visit Scotland in the first place.

HTH.

I live roughly 75 miles from France, and roughly 300 from Scotland. What difference would visiting Scotland make to the return I see on our tax money spent there?

[tinman0]

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

The clue is in the name of the party - UKIP. The key bit is "UK".

Now, unless I've missed something, Scotland, is still part of the UK. And finding a new found appreciation of Scotland, I would prefer us English to be giving the Scots money, rather than France.

If you are seeing nothing in return from our money in Scotland, then I would suggest you visit Scotland in the first place.

HTH.

I live roughly 75 miles from France, and roughly 300 from Scotland. What difference would visiting Scotland make to the return I see on our tax money spent there?

If you are spending money on Scotland, you might as well see what it has to offer!

You cannot begrudge UKIP for giving money to Scotland - when UKIP has the name of the union in their fking name! Gees.

[Kermit power]

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

The clue is in the name of the party - UKIP. The key bit is "UK".

Now, unless I've missed something, Scotland, is still part of the UK. And finding a new found appreciation of Scotland, I would prefer us English to be giving the Scots money, rather than France.

If you are seeing nothing in return from our money in Scotland, then I would suggest you visit Scotland in the first place.

HTH.

I live roughly 75 miles from France, and roughly 300 from Scotland. What difference would visiting Scotland make to the return I see on our tax money spent there?

If you are spending money on Scotland, you might as well see what it has to offer!

You cannot begrudge UKIP for giving money to Scotland - when UKIP has the name of the union in their fking name! Gees.

I'm sure Scotland is a very picturesque place, but then there are lots of picturesque places in England. Why should the English taxpayer spend £22Bn a year on Scotland when many of them don't even want to be in the Union anyway?

[tinman0]

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

The clue is in the name of the party - UKIP. The key bit is "UK".

Now, unless I've missed something, Scotland, is still part of the UK. And finding a new found appreciation of Scotland, I would prefer us English to be giving the Scots money, rather than France.

If you are seeing nothing in return from our money in Scotland, then I would suggest you visit Scotland in the first place.

HTH.

I live roughly 75 miles from France, and roughly 300 from Scotland. What difference would visiting Scotland make to the return I see on our tax money spent there?

If you are spending money on Scotland, you might as well see what it has to offer!

You cannot begrudge UKIP for giving money to Scotland - when UKIP has the name of the union in their fking name! Gees.

I'm sure Scotland is a very picturesque place, but then there are lots of picturesque places in England. Why should the English taxpayer spend £22Bn a year on Scotland when many of them don't even want to be in the Union anyway?

Likewise, why should the 'English' taxpayer spend money on the EU when many of the English don't want to be part of Europe? I'm sure there are some very pretty places in the EU etc.

See what I did there?

However, my original point was in response to:

Kermit power said:

More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

[Kermit power]

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

[tinman0]

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

Yes, lets throw out 200 years of a successful union just so we can keep up payments for a union we really don't like that costs us more, and is in financial trouble itself.

Sound reasoning as ever.

[Kermit power]

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

Yes, lets throw out 200 years of a successful union just so we can keep up payments for a union we really don't like that costs us more, and is in financial trouble itself.

Sound reasoning as ever.

200 years of successful union for whom? I'm not Scottish!

As I've said previously, I think there's a lot that needs to be fixed about the EU, but I also think there are benefits to be had from membership. I cannot think of a single benefit of continued union with Scotland, but plenty of drawbacks, not least of which are the massive drain on English finances and the disproportionate impact Scotland has on the political makeup of the country.

Just because I want to cut Scotland loose, it doesn't mean I don't want to see the EU reformed. I just think these things need to be properly prioritised.

[tinman0]

Kermit power said:

200 years of successful union for whom? I'm not Scottish!

Considering you don't visit Scotland, why don't you say the same thing for anywhere else in the UK you don't visit? How about Northern Ireland? Or Wales? How about Cornwall? Or Shropshire? Or Hull?

Hell, if you don't visit a place, we should instantly cut it off as it doesn't have any direct benefit on you.

What a narrow point of view you appear to have.

[Kermit power]

tinman0 said:

Kermit power said:

200 years of successful union for whom? I'm not Scottish!

Considering you don't visit Scotland, why don't you say the same thing for anywhere else in the UK you don't visit? How about Northern Ireland? Or Wales? How about Cornwall? Or Shropshire? Or Hull?

Hell, if you don't visit a place, we should instantly cut it off as it doesn't have any direct benefit on you.

What a narrow point of view you appear to have.

The Scottish have a particularly annoying line in whining about how they don't get the respect they deserve from the English whilst taking our money hand over fist with absolutely no sense of gratitude whatsoever.

Cornwall, Shropshire and Hull are all part of England, and whilst I'll grant you a small minority of people in Cornwall might like the idea of independence (enough to bloody Labour noses in the Euro elections at least ), I don't see the people of Shropshire or Hull resenting being part of the same country as me or demanding different sets of laws.

If the Welsh decide they want to leave a Union with England, then I wouldn't be sad to see them go, but on all opinion polls at the moment that is a very remote possibility, so I have no problem with them, and certainly don't resent any of my tax money being spent in Wales.

NI is, of course, a somewhat complicated situation, but given the English attitude to Ireland for much of relatively recent history, one can hardly begrudge the resentment felt by the Nationalist community there.

[Mojocvh]

And how much of the "English" purse does that same "nationalistic" community take, with arms spread wide, to save the "peace" process ?

[Kermit power]

Mojocvh said:

And how much of the "English" purse does that same "nationalistic" community take, with arms spread wide, to save the "peace" process ?

I wouldn't disagree. I just think we've been rather more ish to the Irish rather more recently, so to an extent it's just fair retribution.

[Halb]

Kermit power said:

Cornwall, Shropshire and Hull are all part of England, and whilst I'll grant you a small minority of people in Cornwall might like the idea of independence (enough to bloody Labour noses in the Euro elections at least ), I don't see the people of Shropshire or Hull resenting being part of the same country as me or demanding different sets of laws.
If the Welsh decide they want to leave a Union with England, then I wouldn't be sad to see them go, but on all opinion polls at the moment that is a very remote possibility, so I have no problem with them, and certainly don't resent any of my tax money being spent in Wales.

Isn't it a small minority in Soctland as well though?
"Another YouGov Opinion poll in October 2010, showed an increase in support for Independence after the General Election, to 34% saying Yes, and half 50% not in favour of Independence with the other 16% not Sure how they'd vote"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence...
Do the people of Scotland demand separate laws, or are they the result of a cobbled together constitution from 200 plus years ago? I don't think things are as you present them here.

[Kermit power]

Halb said:

Kermit power said:

Cornwall, Shropshire and Hull are all part of England, and whilst I'll grant you a small minority of people in Cornwall might like the idea of independence (enough to bloody Labour noses in the Euro elections at least ), I don't see the people of Shropshire or Hull resenting being part of the same country as me or demanding different sets of laws.
If the Welsh decide they want to leave a Union with England, then I wouldn't be sad to see them go, but on all opinion polls at the moment that is a very remote possibility, so I have no problem with them, and certainly don't resent any of my tax money being spent in Wales.

Isn't it a small minority in Soctland as well though?
"Another YouGov Opinion poll in October 2010, showed an increase in support for Independence after the General Election, to 34% saying Yes, and half 50% not in favour of Independence with the other 16% not Sure how they'd vote"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence...
Do the people of Scotland demand separate laws, or are they the result of a cobbled together constitution from 200 plus years ago? I don't think things are as you present them here.

Shall we quote the whole of that Wiki section rather than just the one part you selected to support the point you wanted to make?

Wiki article said:

Despite the large number of opinion polls conducted on the issue, it is difficult to gauge accurately Scottish public opinion on independence because of the often widely varying results of the polls. Poll results often differ wildly depending on the wording of the question, with the terms such as "break up" and "separation" often provoking a negative response. For example, an opinion poll published by The Scotsman newspaper in November 2006 revealed that a "Majority of Scots now favour independence".[85] However, a poll conducted by Channel 4 only two months later reported that "The figure in support of Scottish independence had seemingly dropped".[86] A third poll by The Daily Telegraph claimed that a significant proportion of Britons would accept the breakup of the United Kingdom.[87] Research conducted in early 2007 revealed that Scottish independence was increasingly appealing to younger Scots.[88] In a poll in 2007 commissioned by The Scotsman newspaper it said Scottish independence was at a 10 year low with only 21% of people in support for it. Conversely, a 2008 opinion poll commissioned by the Sunday Herald newspaper, showed that support for independence was 1% higher than for the status quo.[89] When polls give three options, including an option for greater devolution or a new federal settlement, but stopping short of independence, support for independence significantly declines. In a poll by The Times, published in April 2007, given a choice between independence, the status quo, or greater powers for the Scottish Parliament within the United Kingdom, the last option had majority support.[90]

Polls show a consistent support for a referendum, including amongst those who support the continuation of the union. Most opinion polls performed have a figure of in-principle support for a referendum around 70–75%.[91] In March 2009, The Sunday Times published the results of a YouGov survey on Scottish support for independence (mirroring the earlier 2007 poll). Support for a referendum in principle was found to have fallen to 57% of respondents, with 53% of respondents stating they would vote against independence and 33% stating they would support independence. The Times reported that the fall in support for independence was likely linked to economic recession.[92]

In August 2009 a YouGov survey with the Daily Mail asking if Scottish voters would support independence found that; 28% would vote Yes, 57% would vote No, 11% did not know and 5% would not vote.[93]

Another YouGov Opinion poll in October 2010, showed an increase in support for Independence after the General Election, to 34% saying Yes, and half 50% not in favour of Independence with the other 16% not Sure how they'd vote.

I read that as saying that nobody really knows what the Scots want because the polls are so inconsistent, other than when they are given the "have our cake and eat it" option of being given devolved powers to do what they want whilst benefiting from being part of the same globally recognised nation state as England. Guess who ends up paying for that option?

[s2art]

Kermit power said:

Guess who ends up paying for that option?

Given the Scotch oil and gas field revenue over the years, I doubt S.E England has subsidised the Scotch significantly more than many other parts of the UK.

[Halb]

Kermit power said:

I read that as saying that nobody really knows what the Scots want because the polls are so inconsistent, other than when they are given the "have our cake and eat it" option of being given devolved powers to do what they want whilst benefiting from being part of the same globally recognised nation state as England. Guess who ends up paying for that option?

That is why I put the link. The polls seem to flip flop over the years, but thetwo most recent which were yougov polls both show a disinclination to separate, which seems to be well founded since the SNP won't go for the referendum now because accepted wisdom is that they would lose.

[Globs]

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

What a bizarre view.
You seriously think we'd be better off 'leaving' Scotland than the EU? Crikey, the EU really can do no wrong in your eyes.

How about you go off and live in the socalist utopia that is the EU and leave us the fk alone? Oh I see - you can't do that, because the precious EU needs a regular large supply of my money.

[Kermit power]

Globs said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

What a bizarre view.
You seriously think we'd be better off 'leaving' Scotland than the EU? Crikey, the EU really can do no wrong in your eyes.

How about you go off and live in the socalist utopia that is the EU and leave us the fk alone? Oh I see - you can't do that, because the precious EU needs a regular large supply of my money.

Oh dear, you seem to be challenged when it comes to reading anything I've written in this thread which doesn't conform to what you want to read. I can just picture you sitting there, reading between your fingers so you can avoid any bits you don't like the look of!

That's OK poppet. You continue to believe that everything over the channel is evil in every way, and I'm sure you'll be very happy.

[Mojocvh]

Kermit power said:

Globs said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

What a bizarre view.
You seriously think we'd be better off 'leaving' Scotland than the EU? Crikey, the EU really can do no wrong in your eyes.

How about you go off and live in the socalist utopia that is the EU and leave us the fk alone? Oh I see - you can't do that, because the precious EU needs a regular large supply of my money.

Oh dear, you seem to be challenged when it comes to reading anything I've written in this thread which doesn't conform to what you want to read. I can just picture you sitting there, reading between your fingers so you can avoid any bits you don't like the look of!

That's OK poppet. You continue to believe that everything over the channel is evil in every way, and I'm sure you'll be very happy.

Says the little englander, LOL (NOT)

Hey! you can't have it both ways.

[Kermit power]

Mojocvh said:

Kermit power said:

Globs said:

Kermit power said:

tinman0 said:

For the third time, I was merely pointing out that UKIPs name is The United Kingdom Independence Party, and not England Independence Party.

And the last time I looked, Scotland is still part of the United Kingdom, and as part of the pecking order, they come higher than the EU for English cash (as you mischievously keep calling it).

I don't expect UKIP to adopt my stance. As you say, they have chosen to call themselves UKIP.

It's a real shame that there isn't a credible English Independence Party though, as we'd get far quicker financial gains from pulling out of Scotland than we would from pulling out of the EU.

What a bizarre view.
You seriously think we'd be better off 'leaving' Scotland than the EU? Crikey, the EU really can do no wrong in your eyes.

How about you go off and live in the socalist utopia that is the EU and leave us the fk alone? Oh I see - you can't do that, because the precious EU needs a regular large supply of my money.

Oh dear, you seem to be challenged when it comes to reading anything I've written in this thread which doesn't conform to what you want to read. I can just picture you sitting there, reading between your fingers so you can avoid any bits you don't like the look of!

That's OK poppet. You continue to believe that everything over the channel is evil in every way, and I'm sure you'll be very happy.

Says the little englander, LOL (NOT)

Hey! you can't have it both ways.

What am I trying to have both ways?

I've said that I favour a lot of UKIP's policy objectives, even if I think they themselves are an absurd farce. I've also said I think there are lots of benefits to EU membership, but also a whole raft of crap which should be reformed.

I've read what other people have posted and responded to it. Globs, on the other hand, seems to live in a very black and white world where you're either 100% for Farage or 100% for the EU, and he appears unable to comprehend the notion of someone seeing good and bad in both sides of the debate. It must be a rather strange world to live in, but to each their own.

Just look at the Globs logic in his post above...

Globs reads that I would rather we address the Scottish drain on the English purse before we address the EU, and he arrives at a conclusion, regardless of anything that has gone before in this thread of "Crikey, the EU really can do no wrong in your eyes".

By this logic, you might tell Globs that you think it would be a good idea to get the police to prioritise catching murderers ahead of shoplifters, and his answer would presumably be "Crikey, shoplifters really can do no wrong in your eyes".

Just to add for the sake of clarification, by "English Independence Party", I mean a party promoting the end of the Union and the return to England as a sovereign nation. Were such a party to exist (in mainstream rather than fascist political circles), then I'd decide how I felt about their policy on the EU just as I would any other point of their manifesto. EU membership is not a burning political issue for me one way or the other, as I can see pros and cons to either side of the coin.

Edited by Kermit power on Friday 14th January 00:02

[eharding]

Kermit power said:

poppet

Kylie's Law: "As a PistonHead forum thread grows longer, the probability of someone being referred to as 'Poppet' approaches 1, and the probability of the 'poppet' in question reacting in a positive manner is invariably 0"