Obama; France is the USA's Strongest Ally
Discussion
Can't see anything wrong with what Obama said TBH. What was he supposed to say - “We don’t have a stronger friend and stronger ally than Nicolas Sarkozy, and the French people. Oh, hold on... I meant except for the UK of course... what's that?... right... and Argentina, Germany and Canada. Canada? Are you sure? ... and Canada!"
Ayahuasca said:
Can't see anything wrong with what Obama said TBH. What was he supposed to say - “We don’t have a stronger friend and stronger ally than Nicolas Sarkozy, and the French people. Oh, hold on... I meant except for the UK of course... what's that?... right... and Argentina, Germany and Canada. Canada? Are you sure? ... and Canada!"
+1 Its just the British media s
t stirring as usual.Globs said:
Kermit power said:
some anti UKIP stuff
I suggest you read the finance section of their manifesto, which you have clearly failed to do. You also should read data from The Taxpayers Alliance because that's where the saving would be coming from, in addition to leaving the EU.If you keep claiming they haven't got a clue then you make yourself ridiculous, they have laid out the savings in bold figures, saving IIRC £70bn in the first year alone.
Kermit power said:
How exactly is the coalition fking the country over at the moment?
By pushing us more deeply into the anti-democratic EU, giving our farming and fishing rights away, and lots of our money. Spending from us to the EU just WENT UP 2.9%. WTF?? Oh and we did not get our referendum on Lisbon, so we are forced to pay for a foreign militia and a foreign president. Van Pompuy and Ashton - did you vote for them?king the country over at the moment?By failing to make cuts that are needed. Plenty of useless quangos still exist, plenty of useless public sector jobs un-cut. By GDP our public sector is 58%, enough to swamp and bankrupt us (as is happening). Compare that to China - 28% by GDP. Yes, our state is even bigger than Communist China's. This is an EPIC FAIL.
By failing to make 'getting a job' a valid career option for most on benefits. Epic Fail.
By failing to reform the NHS by putting doctors in charge. Same with the MOD, the number of non soldiers and non doctors/nurses is a disgrace, we should take a lesson from Estonia.
I could go on.
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
some anti UKIP stuff
Globs said:
I suggest you read the finance section of their manifesto, which you have clearly failed to do.
I've read all 41 pages of it. It's a complete joke! The first 8 pages is nothing but classic Daily Wail scaremongering, right the way down to the laughable part where they include 2 pages of links to scaremongering newspaper articles.
They waffle on about repealing many of the 120,000 laws they claim have been introduced by the EU. How many? 1, 10, 10,000? They don't say. They claim 72% of new laws have been introduced for EU legislation. What percentage would've been introduced anyway if we'd not been in the EU? They don't say.
They claim that it would only cost an average of £1,000 for the government to pay for private healthcare for every citizen, but it costs £2,000 per person for the NHS, so there is clearly lots of waste! I don't know if they are being deliberately deceitful or just have laughably naive, half-baked polices, but my wife for one would've died decades ago if left to the terms of private healthcare, as this wouldn't cover her Diabetes, and we know from bitter experience that private healthcare companies will use this as an excuse to wriggle out of paying for a whole host of other treatments too.
They take the typical Daily Wail approach to how much it's going to cost to bail the banks out when they can, in fact, not have a clue how much this will cost because they don't know what price the government will sell their bank stocks at.
They state that they will follow the example of Spain, amongst others, as their banks have not suffered a crisis in the same way. Shall we wait and see what happens to the Spanish banks when they are eventually forced to take their losses from repossessed properties onto their books?
They whine on about "the £16.4Bn in cash currently paid to Brussels". You can quibble over what value we see from that, but the English taxpayer currently spends over £22Bn a year subsidising f
king Scotland!!! If you want to make some decent savings, then at least get your priorities right!They claim no British jobs or trade will be lost through leaving the EU. Really? What about all those people supposedly doing needless jobs just to satisfy EU legislation? They can't have it both ways! Either these jobs which supposedly wouldn't be needed if we left the EU don't exist, or they are British jobs which would be lost if we left the EU. Which is it?
Apparently they're going to reclaim British territorial waters up to 200 miles. Given the degree to which Scotland benefits from EU membership, what are the odds on Scotland not voting for independence to remain within the EU? If they do, take a look at just what Anglo-Welsh territorial waters would represent. Off the coast of Scotland is about the only place where there would be any significant benefit! Conjecture I grant you, but UKIP seem to just be assuming Scotland will never take independence.
"Three million jobs would not be “at risk” if the UK left the EU", they claim. Their justification for this is that "the EU has free
trade agreements with dozens of other countries, so it should not be too difficult to negotiate one for the UK." How the f
k does a supposedly serious, credible political party get from "jobs would not be at risk" to "shouldn't be too difficult". I can just see Farage now! "Well I know I called you all a bunch of bloated old tossers who we didn't need or want, but hey ho, let's let bygones be bygones and how about you give us the same trading conditions as we had before!" It's an utterly absurd assumption to make! The EU as a trading bloc represents over 50% of our exports. We represent no more than 6% of the exports of any other EU country except Ireland. Who exactly has who over a barrel with their trousers round their ankles if we pull out of the EU?Moving on from jobs which may or may not be at risk over pulling out from Europe, they point to 2 million non-jobs in the public sector. Apparently these people are all going to waltz into private sector jobs because UKIP are going to increase government spending on railways. Now given the amount of time they've spent lampooning the uselessness of these people in non-jobs, exactly what transferable skills are they going to bring to the private sector?
From what I can tell, UKIP have made absolutely no allowance at all for redundancy payments or unemployment benefit for any of these. Can they really be so sure that they're all going to waltz into these new, productive roles?
I actually rather like a lot of UKIP's policies. I am more or less 100% in agreement with their policies on law & order, for example. There are others which are frankly bizarre! "Allow county referenda to reverse the hunting ban at local level", for example. Seriously, just how much would be wasted on sending people out to police the field between Hampshire and Wiltshire, for sake of argument, to make sure nobody strays over the county line in the middle of nowhere. I thought they were supposed to be anti red tape, not introducing more of it?
Overall, whilst there are plenty of things I like, the overall UKIP manifesto is one big attempt to w
k off the readership of the Daily Mail. They even manage to get Beeching onto their manifesto, for God's sake! How many other nostalgic heartstrings can they find to cynically manipulate?They put up a shopping list of things they think Middle England wants (and in many cases they are right), then chuck up some half-arsed figures to cover parts of it without making any mention of the inconvenient little facts such as the cost of cutting public sector jobs, the fact that we'll be able to recoup bank bailout money by selling off shares and the thought that the remainder of the EU just might not be too happily disposed towards Britain with regards to negotiating trade agreements if we leave.
Kermit power said:
Stuff
I'm not sure what you have against the Daily Mail, but if what UKIP wanted to do coincide with some Daily Mail views I can only say that would be an excellent thing for England.You also need to remember that the EU was formed by Maastricht in 1992 by John Major signing is up (another referendum dodged there too). Rewinding to 1992 is not unreasonable - after all the EU in it's current form has given us nothing but good practice at bending over for the soap.
What this country needs is some good right wing thinking and independence. The coalition are in power now - not UKIP (although you obviously view them as a threat) - and are not cutting it.
Cast Iron Dave and E.U.Clegg have the common purpose of assimilating the UK into the EU, a process that removes accountability and democracy. I'm sure they want the euro too, so we can move from being in debt to the Bank of England to the foreign Bundesbank, renamed the ECB.
So calm down, wipe off the foam and accept that fact that many people in England are deeply disappointed by the coalition and would prefer some UKIP type action. As for budgeting for redundancy payments - the current answer of just never sacking anyone is hardly pushing us forward is it?
crofty1984 said:
Muntu said:
Tsippy said:
Muntu said:
grumbledoak said:
One wonders what he wants from France now. Assuming it isn't Mrs Sarkozy, of course.
h ass" look if ever I saw one Globs said:
Kermit power said:
Stuff
I'm not sure what you have against the Daily Mail, but if what UKIP wanted to do coincide with some Daily Mail views I can only say that would be an excellent thing for England.You also need to remember that the EU was formed by Maastricht in 1992 by John Major signing is up (another referendum dodged there too). Rewinding to 1992 is not unreasonable - after all the EU in it's current form has given us nothing but good practice at bending over for the soap.
What this country needs is some good right wing thinking and independence. The coalition are in power now - not UKIP (although you obviously view them as a threat) - and are not cutting it.
Cast Iron Dave and E.U.Clegg have the common purpose of assimilating the UK into the EU, a process that removes accountability and democracy. I'm sure they want the euro too, so we can move from being in debt to the Bank of England to the foreign Bundesbank, renamed the ECB.
So calm down, wipe off the foam and accept that fact that many people in England are deeply disappointed by the coalition and would prefer some UKIP type action. As for budgeting for redundancy payments - the current answer of just never sacking anyone is hardly pushing us forward is it?
The other poster that has some bizare fixation with UKIP supporters being Daily Mail readers needs to stop stereotyping folk if he is to be at all taken seriously.
I am party neutral but it is fairly clear that the coalition isn't working with conflicting politics and often weak leadership we are currently seeing. It appears Dave doesn't have the backbone to standup on the international stage and fight our battles.
Ordinary_Chap said:
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
Stuff
I'm not sure what you have against the Daily Mail, but if what UKIP wanted to do coincide with some Daily Mail views I can only say that would be an excellent thing for England.You also need to remember that the EU was formed by Maastricht in 1992 by John Major signing is up (another referendum dodged there too). Rewinding to 1992 is not unreasonable - after all the EU in it's current form has given us nothing but good practice at bending over for the soap.
What this country needs is some good right wing thinking and independence. The coalition are in power now - not UKIP (although you obviously view them as a threat) - and are not cutting it.
Cast Iron Dave and E.U.Clegg have the common purpose of assimilating the UK into the EU, a process that removes accountability and democracy. I'm sure they want the euro too, so we can move from being in debt to the Bank of England to the foreign Bundesbank, renamed the ECB.
So calm down, wipe off the foam and accept that fact that many people in England are deeply disappointed by the coalition and would prefer some UKIP type action. As for budgeting for redundancy payments - the current answer of just never sacking anyone is hardly pushing us forward is it?
The other poster that has some bizare fixation with UKIP supporters being Daily Mail readers needs to stop stereotyping folk if he is to be at all taken seriously.
I am party neutral but it is fairly clear that the coalition isn't working with conflicting politics and often weak leadership we are currently seeing. It appears Dave doesn't have the backbone to standup on the international stage and fight our battles.
Edited by powerstroke on Wednesday 12th January 18:58
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
Stuff
After claiming I had no credibility for supposedly not reading the UKIP financial policy, you've chosen to not respond to the reasons I gave from that policy which removed their credibility?
Globs said:
I'm not sure what you have against the Daily Mail, but if what UKIP wanted to do coincide with some Daily Mail views I can only say that would be an excellent thing for England.
What I have against the Daily Mail is their foul brand of gutter journalism. Specifically the way in which they insist on sensationalising out of all proportion anything they think will sell more papers with a complete disregard for facts.Globs said:
You also need to remember that the EU was formed by Maastricht in 1992 by John Major signing is up (another referendum dodged there too). Rewinding to 1992 is not unreasonable - after all the EU in it's current form has given us nothing but good practice at bending over for the soap.
Do you actually believe there is any possibility of unilaterally winding back two decades of history? I know UKIP would probably take the view that "it shouldn't be too difficult", but do you seriously believe that?Globs said:
What this country needs is some good right wing thinking and independence.
I couldn't agree more. That is not the same as saying we've got to pull out of the EU whilst blandly assuring everyone that it will all be OK, not a single job will be lost and all the Europeans will be delighted to just give us the good bits. That's a fantasy.If we're going to go for proper, worthwhile right wing thinking and independence, let's start with cutting off Scotland. They already cost us more and give less back than the EU does.
Globs said:
Cast Iron Dave and E.U.Clegg have the common purpose of assimilating the UK into the EU, a process that removes accountability and democracy. I'm sure they want the euro too, so we can move from being in debt to the Bank of England to the foreign Bundesbank, renamed the ECB.
Remind me to invest in Rio Tinto. Their Alcan subsidiary is looking like a strong bet for growth. 
Globs said:
So calm down, wipe off the foam and accept that fact that many people in England are deeply disappointed by the coalition
I would have no difficulty whatsoever in accepting this. It's perfectly clear.Globs said:
and would prefer some UKIP type action.
Would this be the UKIP which, despite, according to one of the polls mentioned on this thread supports the view of the majority of the electorate only managed to poll 3% of the vote at the election? The same UKIP which polled fewer votes per candidate than the BNP?
Considering that supposedly half the electorate do want to leave the EU, do you not think that suggests that even a fair share of the 3% who voted for them probably did so in spite of UKIP as a political party rather than because of it?
They choose to maximise all the possible benefits of leaving the EU (ignoring, for example, the costs of any laws and regulations which may well have been introduced even if we weren't in the EU), whilst completely denying the possibility of any of the downsides. Their approach to the EU is more or less identical to the Green movement's approach to anyone or anything suggesting that MMGW is anything other than 100% proven gospel truth.
How can you give any serious credibility to anyone who says with one breath that pulling out of the EU wouldn't cost a single British job, then goes on in the next breath to tell you about all the jobs that would be eliminated by getting rid of the EU?
Globs said:
As for budgeting for redundancy payments - the current answer of just never sacking anyone is hardly pushing us forward is it?
I don't believe it is either, but I'm not the political party claiming to have presented a budget to save £77Bn in their first year by cutting public sector jobs whilst conveniently forgetting to account for the first year cost of cutting those jobs.Europe aside, I agree with more of their policies than I do those of any other political party whose manifesto I've read. The problem is that UKIP's manifesto is the sort of thing that would come out of an enjoyable session in the bar at BTaP. Unfortunately, they have no more substance to them than a session in the bar at BTaP either.
Edited for formatting
Edited by Kermit power on Wednesday 12th January 20:25
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
Stuff
I'm not sure what you have against the Daily Mail, but if what UKIP wanted to do coincide with some Daily Mail views I can only say that would be an excellent thing for England.The Anti Daily Mail argument is used by people who pretend they are brighter than they really are.
Kermit power said:
stuff I disagree with
I can see that you love the EU, and therefore attack anything and anyone who doesn't. I can also see you know nothing of money or banking either as you singularly fail to understand the euro. I don't. I dislike the lack of accountability, the lack of democracy, and the stifling bureaucracy. And while you think the EU was created by The Flower People it was in reality created by a group of very rich powerful people who had/have no concept of democracy.
BTW you are great at PH formatting but fail to realise I'll still disagree with you afterwards. Attacking UKIP or me still confers no legitimacy upon either the unelected EU or the secretive ECB/Bundesbank.
Interesting comment on this here
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/10007...
I tend to agree with this, Obama still seems to get an easy ride
"If Bush had made this latest statement about the US and France, America’s mainstream media would have torn him apart for weeks. Instead, the media’s Obama-worshippers will continue their policy of keeping silent, while the president goes on to make even grander mistakes. The US-UK special relationship will survive, but no thanks to the White House.
"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/10007...
I tend to agree with this, Obama still seems to get an easy ride
"If Bush had made this latest statement about the US and France, America’s mainstream media would have torn him apart for weeks. Instead, the media’s Obama-worshippers will continue their policy of keeping silent, while the president goes on to make even grander mistakes. The US-UK special relationship will survive, but no thanks to the White House.
"
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
stuff I disagree with
I can see that you love the EU, and therefore attack anything and anyone who doesn't. I can also see you know nothing of money or banking either as you singularly fail to understand the euro. I don't. I dislike the lack of accountability, the lack of democracy, and the stifling bureaucracy. And while you think the EU was created by The Flower People it was in reality created by a group of very rich powerful people who had/have no concept of democracy.
BTW you are great at PH formatting but fail to realise I'll still disagree with you afterwards. Attacking UKIP or me still confers no legitimacy upon either the unelected EU or the secretive ECB/Bundesbank.
I think you'd actually get on quite well with most of the mainstream politicians, given that you share their love of ignoring any part of a debate that doesn't suit you.
Quite where you get the notion I love the EU from is something of a mystery. There's all sorts of things wrong with the EU, and huge amounts that could be done to improve it. I'm just not blinkered enough to refuse to accept that there are also huge benefits to membership, nor am I deluded enough to think that Britain going solo would somehow have the sort of bargaining power we had at the height of empire.
Your beloved UKIP are not better placed to ensure the future of this country than any other political party, essentially due to their "la la la, I can't hear you" approach to any notion that there might be so much as a single benefit to being part of Europe, or that there might be any obstacles to our withdrawing from the EU whilst cherrypicking the bits of the relationship we want to keep.
Anyway, it would appear that you share UKIP's black and white view of the world, so I don't suppose there's much point prolonging the exchange.
Pesty said:
Interesting comment on this here
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/10007...
I tend to agree with this, Obama still seems to get an easy ride
"If Bush had made this latest statement about the US and France, America’s mainstream media would have torn him apart for weeks. Instead, the media’s Obama-worshippers will continue their policy of keeping silent, while the president goes on to make even grander mistakes. The US-UK special relationship will survive, but no thanks to the White House.
"
Great, more talk of the 'special relationship'. What a cringe worthy phrase and one which stinks of insecurity and desperation.http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamescorum/10007...
I tend to agree with this, Obama still seems to get an easy ride
"If Bush had made this latest statement about the US and France, America’s mainstream media would have torn him apart for weeks. Instead, the media’s Obama-worshippers will continue their policy of keeping silent, while the president goes on to make even grander mistakes. The US-UK special relationship will survive, but no thanks to the White House.
"
To paraphrase Kissinger, 'in international relations there are no permanent friends or allies, only permanent interests'.
As to the wider point of the American media treating Bush and Obama differently, I totally agree. Was no fan of Bush jnr but Obama does get an easy ride in comparison to the former.
rypt said:
Kermit power said:
Stuff
If EU is such a good thing, why have accountants refused to sign off on their books?More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.
The really annoying part about Scotland within the EU is that thanks to all the English money flowing to them they can afford to abolish tuition fees for their sprogs, have to offer the same to other EU citizens under EU law, but can discriminate against English students because they're, in the eyes of the EU, from the same country.
Given that there are fewer than 2 million English students at English universities, if we were to declare independence from Scotland, then they could all have tuition fees, and everyone wins!
Kermit power said:
More frustrating is that UKIP complain about contributing £16.4Bn to the EU coffers every year but remain completely silent about English taxpayers contributing £22Bn to Scottish coffers every year and seeing absolutely nothing in return.
The clue is in the name of the party - UKIP. The key bit is "UK".Now, unless I've missed something, Scotland, is still part of the UK. And finding a new found appreciation of Scotland, I would prefer us English to be giving the Scots money, rather than France.
If you are seeing nothing in return from our money in Scotland, then I would suggest you visit Scotland in the first place.
HTH.
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